Engine Info for New Member

[FredBMOC]

Hi everyone!
I have been reading through the forum for the past few days about the different manufacturers, engines, options, etc ;however I would still like some clarification as far as all the different engine options available for Cobras from 427s to modern FI Aluminum engines. Pros and Cons of each? I tried to find an FAQ or sticky with all of this info summarized but simply could not find it.

Thanks,

Fred in Florida

[charles roybal]

I recomend Keith Craft....my 408w is AWSOME...went carb...but you can get fule injection...check him out.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FredBMOC

... I would still like some clarification as far as all the different engine options available for Cobras from 427s to modern FI Aluminum engines.

Fred, lemmeee sum it up for you.... If it's a 427 style car, anything other than an FE is basically just a POS stuffed in under the hood. And if it's a 289 car, well then it really doesn't matter because it's a 289 car....

[Excaliber]

Here's what you need to know:

427, flat tappet cam,,,, were done here!

[dcdoug]

What's your budget and how authentic do you want to be? If you want authenticity, then only an FE will do, preferably a 427 or 428. Also, some 427 style cobras need to be modified in order to take an FE, so talk to the manufacturer you are considering as well. (Oh, and as a newbie who may not know everyone's personality yet, take our friend Patrickt with a grain of salt. He loves to throw out strong opinions to incite rioting.)

[FredBMOC]

Come on boys,
Give me a run down on the different engines with Pros and Cons... please...
The reason I am asking is because in looking through adds and trying to compare the different builds is hard enough when just considering the different Cobra manufacturers and build options. When I add the sad fact of not really knowing the different engines and their characteristics makes the search even harder!!
I am trying to make an informed decision, as much as possible, and really appreciate the help you guys can give me!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FredBMOC

I am trying to make an informed decision, as much as possible, and really appreciate the help you guys can give me!

If you go with an FE, you will end up paying a lot more just for the "authenticity" factor. If you're looking for pure "bang for the buck," have Lykins build you a SBF. It will last, and run like crazy.

[Mark328GTS]

Just make the call and Keith Craft will tell you whatever you need to know

[FredBMOC]

Doug,

Regarding Budget, I'd like to spend less than $40k on this toy (preferably closer to $30k) so I am mostly looking at used cars. Among the used car classifieds I have been looking, I see a lot of different engines used on the builds which is the main reason for my question; also because I am in South Florida and its damn hot here I am interested in how hot and temperamental these engines are; I love power but I hate having to push a car or worse, having to have it towed. Regarding the different manufacturers, I so far have been looking at Superformance and Backdraft as they seem to be among the most popular, well liked and there are many cars available for sale. I don't really need to have the most authentic Cobra available so I think that most of the reputable builders out there would fit the bill for me.
I hope this sheds some light on my thought process...

[FredBMOC]

Originally Posted by patrickt

If you go with an FE, you will end up paying a lot more just for the "authenticity" factor. If you're looking for pure "bang for the buck," have Lykins build you a SBF. It will last, and run like crazy.

Thanks for the advice!

[dcdoug]

I think I'd go with patrickt's advice then and go for a SBF in that price range (I realize this is actually the opposite of what patrickt originally said ). Lots of options to choose from. Be picky, it's a buyers market.

It will be hard to find an FE powered cobra for under $40k. The engine alone is worth $10k-$20k. If you want to stretch a bit, buy MrMustangs ERA with a 427 Tunnelport (more like $48k-$49k).

[Excaliber]

Being as this is your first Cobra one of two things will happen in time.
1. You will learn more about the cars, compare that to the car you have and determine that you would like something more authentic.
2. You will be mostly happy with what you got, for the money, and accept it, even though it's not really what you want as time goes by.

Myself, I started with a long wheel base Cobra with a typical 302 Ford, T5 trans and live rear axle at a good price. As time went on I began to wonder what it is was really like "back in the day"? Could I afford to get into another Cobra that was a little more authentic, closer to like it was in the 60's? I wanted to feel, and live that experience as much as reasonably possible given my budget.

Phase two:
I HAD to have a genuine FE for starters. I HAD to have IRS as well, while some live axle cars are OK, mine rode like a truck. Terribly uncomfortable on the street, but did surprisingly well on the track. Lack of power bothered me, the small block, near stock, just wasn't enough (in time). At first, I thought it was plenty.

So, I found a good used ERA at a price I could afford, while not perfect to original details in all aspects (very few of these cars are) it's "close enough". A genuine 427 side oiler, with original heads and a flat tappet cam. Of course the IRS and a body shape (very important to me) that is considered one of the most accurate shapes around. The whole thing cost me considerably more than I ever thought I would pay for a replica Cobra. But you see, you either get bitten hard by the snake and gotta have it, or your happy with what you do have and don't worry about it.

Only time will tell which way it goes for you...

Many say, correctly, a replica Cobra is little more than a "hot rod". Modded up with modern parts, etc. etc. The logic is hard to escape. good price, good quality and all that. But for me, it lacks "soul". Take the BDR for instance, nice ride, nice price, to much BMW in the mix for my taste, that would always bother me. As you mentioned the SPF, small block or 385 series big block is a typical choice. A nice 351W stroked and bored or a 429/460 big block. Neither appeals to me. An SPF with a "real" FE? Even a 390? Well now were talking, I might bite, at the right price.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

I think I'd go with patrickt's advice then and go for a SBF in that price range (I realize this is actually the opposite of what patrickt originally said ).

No, both my positions are entirely consistent. By giving Lykins ten grand for a new SBF, he will get an engine that will both last, and, will have more horsepower than he will ever use. BUT, by the fact that it's not an FE, it will still be a POS if inserted under the hood of a 427 car.

[Excaliber]

...buy MrMustangs ERA with a 427 Tunnelport (more like $48k-$49k).

Thats what I'm talking about!!!! Nailed it right there! About as close to a "real" Cobra as your likely to get for the money.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Thats what I'm talking about!!!! Nailed it right there! About as close to a "real" Cobra as your likely to get for the money.

Agreed. In fact, I'm almost tempted to throw a couple of grand in to the kitty just to get the damn thing sold so he'll quit bugging us with it.

[FredBMOC]

Excaliber,
Thanks for taking the time to write. In truth I tend to fall into category 1 of your description but since I have never even sat in a cobra I am trying to be reasonable about it and keep the price tag to a reasonable amount for a decent vehicle. I have read about and looked at the listings for ERAs and Kirkhams and fully understand the lust all Cobra owners have for those vehicles and some day I may find myself with a "must Have" urge to have one of those but at this time simply having the look of a cobra and some of the raw driving experience should suffice ( at least I hope it will ).

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Being as this is your first Cobra one of two things will happen in time.
1. You will learn more about the cars, compare that to the car you have and determine that you would like something more authentic.
2. You will be mostly happy with what you got, for the money, and accept it, even though it's not really what you want as time goes by.

Myself, I started with a long wheel base Cobra with a typical 302 Ford, T5 trans and live rear axle at a good price. As time went on I began to wonder what it is was really like "back in the day"? Could I afford to get into another Cobra that was a little more authentic, closer to like it was in the 60's? I wanted to feel, and live that experience as much as reasonably possible given my budget.

Phase two:
I HAD to have a genuine FE for starters. I HAD to have IRS as well, while some live axle cars are OK, mine rode like a truck. Terribly uncomfortable on the street, but did surprisingly well on the track. Lack of power bothered me, the small block, near stock, just wasn't enough (in time). At first, I thought it was plenty.

So, I found a good used ERA at a price I could afford, while not perfect to original details in all aspects (very few of these cars are) it's "close enough". A genuine 427 side oiler, with original heads and a flat tappet cam. Of course the IRS and a body shape (very important to me) that is considered one of the most accurate shapes around. The whole thing cost me considerably more than I ever thought I would pay for a replica Cobra. But you see, you either get bitten hard by the snake and gotta have it, or your happy with what you do have and don't worry about it.

Only time will tell which way it goes for you...

Many say, correctly, a replica Cobra is little more than a "hot rod". Modded up with modern parts, etc. etc. The logic is hard to escape. good price, good quality and all that. But for me, it lacks "soul". Take the BDR for instance, nice ride, nice price, to much BMW in the mix for my taste, that would always bother me. As you mentioned the SPF, small block or 385 series big block is a typical choice. A nice 351W stroked and bored or a 429/460 big block. Neither appeals to me. An SPF with a "real" FE? Even a 390? Well now were talking, I might bite, at the right price.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FredBMOC

... but at this time simply having the look of a cobra and some of the raw driving experience should suffice ( at least I hope it will ).

A well built, used FFR with a strong engine and the looks that strike your fancy will do quite nicely then. You really shouldn't have too much trouble and you'll have a blast with it.

[FredBMOC]

Hey,
I might take you up on that offer

Regarding POS SBF The engine of choice would be something like a 351W correct?
Regarding the different engine builders such as Roush, Lykins, Keith Craft what is the difference between them?
Sorry about so many questions but I have never owned an american muscle car; my thing was always for European cars.

Originally Posted by patrickt

Agreed. In fact, I'm almost tempted to throw a couple of grand in to the kitty just to get the damn thing sold so he'll quit bugging us with it.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by FredBMOC

Hey,
I might take you up on that offer

Regarding POS SBF The engine of choice would be something like a 351W correct?
Regarding the different engine builders such as Roush, Lykins, Keith Craft what is the difference between them?
Sorry about so many questions but I have never owned an american muscle car; my thing was always for European cars.

Yes, but they're stroked out now so they are well above 400 cubes. Power-wise, they'll make as much, or more, than my FE. The three builders you named all make very nice engines, and all will do well for you. Roush has a world wide reputation, KC has a mostly national reputation, and Lykins has a "local" reputation. You will pay accordingly, for the most part.

[olddog]

The FE engines - 390, 427, & 428 (a few other, but are scarce) were built in the 50's and 60's with 390 continuing into trucks through the 70's. They are heavy iron engines. There were about 4 versions of heads with different heights. The 427 & 428 are the engines that originally came in the Cobra. Stroker combinations are commonly up to 482 cid and bigger can be done. They are capable of great power, but they are a complicated design. They are costly to build (50% more), and prone to quite a few problems. Oil leaks being one of them.

The 385 series big blocks are 429 & 460 and can be stroked to well over 500 cid. This engine easy to make huge power at low costs. They are huge physical size. They can be put into a Cobra and are, but it is a very tight fit.

Ford made a 351 Cleveland. The 4V was the beast in its day. They were not made very long and are hard to find. Not as many after market parts available. People still use them in Cobra builds.

The 351 Windsor based engine can be stroke to ~ 408 cid and if you go with an after market block with a 4.125 in bore, it can be built with 427 cid. If you bore that block to the max you can get to 460 cid. By the time you get this built with the hug cid your into the FE price range. Stay at 392 cid and the price can be amazingly low.

The 5.0 ltr popular in the mustangs 80's up until 95 can be stroked to 331 & 347 cid. It is the least expensive to build. It is extremely light weighing at 400 lb in all cast iron from the factory. It is about half the weight of the big blocks. The block is the weakest and has been known to split, when pushed over ~500 hp give or take. The engine is quite tiny in physical size.

Any of these engines can be built many ways. There are a dozen or more aluminum heads made for most of these engines. Same with intake manifolds. Lots of stroker combinations available. You can use a factory block or an after market block (aluminum or cast iron). Aluminum is about double the price of cast iron.

Aluminum is light and easy to machine. It conducts heat very well. It has 4 times the thermal expansion as cast iron. It slowly creeps over time. There are many hardening techniques to overcome its stability problems. It requires much more skill to make quality parts from aluminum. The physically bigger the engine the more problems with thermal expansion issues.

In normally aspirated engines with good flowing heads about 1.25 to 1.3 lb-ft of torque per cubic inch is about the upper limit with 2 valves per cylinder for a street engine. The cam design will dictate where in the rpm range the torque will be made.

This is a very rough guide and the combinations of parts is just about endless. It is impossible to give you an exact answer. You need to be thinking about reliability. How much under the hood work you are willing and able to do? How big of a cam will you be happy to drive?