Big block or small block?

[olddog]

The London, Ohio Cobra show usually pulls in around 200 cars give or take. I have been there the last 5 or 6 years. The first two I went to, I counted the SB, FE, and 385 engines. About 3/4 of the Cobra there are something other than a FE. Very few are 351C or 385 series engines. Of the 1/4 that are FE engines, many are 390 blocks, but it is hard to say, the FE guys are the least likely to talk to you about what their engine is. My gut tells me that there are very few original 427 blocks, let alone side oilers. One year (maybe more) there was a fellow there with a tunnel port 427. Nice guy and very nice car. Every year more and more Modular engines show up.

When you go to the auto cross, there is typically 30 cars give or take 10. Maybe 2 or 3 will have an FE engine. Certainly a far cry less than the 1/4 that are there. I have never saw or heard of a 385 series engine there, but I could have missed one. Why do the BB cars rarely show up? I cannot say that I could tell what engine was in a car at the auto cross by the way it handled.

The Big Block cars are well represented at the burn-out / 1/8 mile rides.

Now London pulls cars in from practically every state (Florida, Alabama, Illinois, etc), Canada, and even a member from down under. A few trailer them in, but most drive them. Certainly there are thousands of replicas and 200 is a small sample. It may not be representative of all Cobra. If in fact most replicas do have FE engines, then for what ever reason they just do not come to London.

You read the FE Engine area of this forum, and I think you will find they are quite prone to problems and not the most reliable engine choice. If you have one of the top builders in the country (who are on this forum) build one, maybe they are about the same reliability of the Windsor, if you ignore the oil leaks. But they cost about 1.5-2X.

Now with that said a ton of people are car enthusiasts, and they know a bit about the Cobra. They all have excitement in their eyes when the see my Cobra, and ask does it have a 427 in it? I always say no its just a small block, and you can see the disappointment in their eyes. I have never had any rude comments, but I do not try to pretend or defend anything about my engine. It is what it is.

[fordracing65]

On looks alone, the mod motor in the car fills up the engine bay with the huge dohc heads and people love it, they ask questions all day, as they would with a 351 or an FE, what really matters is do you have a cobra and do you love it, we all do and im sure everyone on here enjoys there car just as much as the next guy, I have driven all cobras with all these engines if you didnt know what was under the hood even the so callled experts you probably couldnt tell the difference, seeing the power levels were the same.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by olddog

You read the FE Engine area of this forum, and I think you will find they are quite prone to problems and not the most reliable engine choice. If you have one of the top builders in the country (who are on this forum) build one, maybe they are about the same reliability of the Windsor, if you ignore the oil leaks.

The BS meter is pegging at 11. The small block people love their small blocks. The FE people love their big blocks. The 385 people love their engines. And the one person with a DOHC mod motor loves his engine. It's the bestest!

I can't believe I post in these stupid SB versus BB threads.

And Patrick's car doesn't look fast in that picture. It looks like the photographer had one too many drinks at the oyster bar before he or she took the picture.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

And Patrick's car doesn't look fast in that picture. It looks like the photographer had one too many drinks at the oyster bar before he or she took the picture.

Uhhh, at least one other person besides me believes it to be "about as beautiful a picture of a Cobra as you’ll ever see." Yep, ERAChas is still hitting the Maalox from having to deal with that little gem.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The BS meter is pegging at 11. The small block people love their small blocks. The FE people love their big blocks. The 385 people love their engines. And the one person with a DOHC mod motor loves his engine. It's the bestest!

I tried very hard to be truthful and objective, without being offensive. To peg at 11 on the BS seems a bit biased. I'm surprised.

Top builders on this forum have said they fights oil leaks on FE engines. I think oil leaks are a very common problem on the FE. Do you dispute that?

The FE guys on this forum almost always advice not to let just any shop build your FE no matter how good the shop. The shop has to specialize in FE or they will likely screw something up. Building an FE yourself is highly discouraged by the experts around here. Why is this? The FE is a very complicated design, where the SB Ford is much simpler, as well as the 385 series engines (just about any engine for that matter). Do you dispute this?

[Wbulk]

Olddog, well stated! As I read these posts it does evoke some emotion, which I question why? It is funny to think that people that own a replica car actually think their car is better or worse because they have one engine over another. I think these arguments started in the 60s when I was in High School. But for some reason it seems to be more intense with those who buy their engines instead of build them. It's all just pretend anyway! We are little boys grown up, playing with expensive toys. I admit it. Actually, I like what the Aussie guys build. The are more open minded and seem to be more innovative. In my mind new ideas are more interesting.

Bills questions are more relevant.

Wayne

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Wbulk

We are little boys grown up, playing with expensive toys.

Oh yeah? Well take this:

Originally Posted by Wbulk

Actually, I like what the Aussie guys build. The are more open minded and seem to be more innovative.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... Australia started as a penal colony, sometimes I think it still is.

[Wbulk]

That is funny.

[twin turbo]

Krkucin, if you are looking at used cars, just find the nicest car that appeals to you that's within your budget. There are some great buys out there. It seems a lot of the SPF cars I've seen run small blocks, you'll have more selection of big block cars if you expand your list to include an ERA.

Regarding the small vs big block debate, it really comes down to personal preference. I think both are great and each has trade-offs which is why I went totally non-traditional with a twin turbo small block. In the end, you may have to choose between a super nice small block car and a not as nice FE car for the same price. Cheers.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by twin turbo

In the end, you may have to choose between a super nice small block car and a not as nice FE car for the same price.

There are countries that allow you to sell your body organs. You could always do that, then fly home and get the FE. Just food for thought....

[RodKnock]

First you said FE's have reliability problems, then they're prone to oil leaks, unless built by the top builders in the country. Yes, my FE doesn't leak and hasn't had any reliability problems and I'm sure there are quite a few others on this forum with reliable leak free FE's.

I've had SBF's and BBC's with leak problems. There was just a thread on here about new Ford 427's (SBF) with valve seal issues and leaks. I just think you can't use some all-encompassing large generality about any engine, especially with the parts and technology available in 2011-2012.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes, my FE doesn't leak and hasn't had any reliability problems and I'm sure there are quite a few others on this forum with reliable leak free FE's.

It's taken me years to get my FE not to leave drips. Once you've figured out the sources of the leaks, and learned the tricks, it's not as tough as you think. Unless there's something really bad wrong with one, I think I could seal it off in less than a year. When it comes to reliability, I think FEs are actually better than average, at least once you've gotten them running for a thousand or two miles. If you look at the FEs from the 60s, those things ran forever with a lot of them getting little to no maintenance. They're a good, strong design and, once you get them past the "break-in" period, they'll last forever. But you do want somebody building them that has built a couple of them before.

[fjrgary]

one of the best quotes i've seen on this forum was " FE's dont leak, they mark their territory".

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by patrickt

It's taken me years to get my FE not to leave drips. Once you've figured out the sources of the leaks, and learned the tricks, it's not as tough as you think. Unless there's something really bad wrong with one, I think I could seal it off in less than a year. When it comes to reliability, I think FEs are actually better than average, at least once you've gotten them running for a thousand or two miles. If you look at the FEs from the 60s, those things ran forever with a lot of them getting little to no maintenance. They're a good, strong design and, once you get them past the "break-in" period, they'll last forever. But you do want somebody building them that has built a couple of them before.

A lot of the old school guys have the advantage of living in a time when knowing how to maintain and keep our cars in perfect running order was the norm.To this day still enjoy lifting the hood for some TLC,figuring out where a leak is, then how to stop it,doing a tuneup,generally looking the car over,grease jobs,all the things required to satisfy the perfectionism gremlin.Still crawl under car to wipe down undercarraige.As I have always said it is me that needs to be pleased and TLCing these toys truly pleases me.It does not matter who's name is on the fender badges or what powers them down the road they all get the same treatment.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

First you said FE's have reliability problems, then they're prone to oil leaks, unless built by the top builders in the country. Yes, my FE doesn't leak and hasn't had any reliability problems and I'm sure there are quite a few others on this forum with reliable leak free FE's.

I've had SBF's and BBC's with leak problems. There was just a thread on here about new Ford 427's (SBF) with valve seal issues and leaks. I just think you can't use some all-encompassing large generality about any engine, especially with the parts and technology available in 2011-2012.

Reliability problems, unless built by a pro. Oil leaks even when built by the pros. Again the design requires more skill to build than the average design.

Here are comments from a 2007 thread on this forum about an oil leak problem by two top notch guys.


Written by Keith Craft 5/10/2007:
I can not see an engine builder taking an engine that is running perfectly fine back because of an oil leak on a used block. I tell everyone that gets a FE engine do not be surprised if it leaks at the rear main seal. I have built enough of the new and old ones to know. We have tried evrything that we can find and since we do not make the block or machine the seal area we can not stand behind rear main seal leaks. We do check them on the dyno and if they leak we do all that we can to fix them. We have even gotten Chrysler Big Block rear main seals and worked on them for the blocks that seem to be a little big in the rear seal area and have had some suddes doing that in bad situations. It is not only the size of the seal area it is also how it is machined in relationship to the center of the mains. We machine the early 302 and 351 blocks that we do for a one piece rear main seal and find the original two piece seal area of center as much as .030 and it is hard to seal up something that is that much of center. The blue prints for the origins FE engines had most of the tolerances at a plus or minus .025 for areas like this. Even the lifter bores are listed with a plus or minus .025 tolerance for their location. This means that you could have one bore plus .025 and another minus .025. This is mone reason the factory used a rope seal. I have not been able to find any rope seal of late and then they had their own problems. I have had this with all of the original and new FE blocks. You can not machine these blocks for a one piece seal because of the size of the flywheel flange and bolt pattern. Now if we had cranks made with a small block bolt pattern and we could get flywheels with a small block bolt pattern with a 184 teeth we could do this. Maybe I need to look into a new way to go and any ideal would be nice. If I get a FE engine that runs good and is giving me no problems and only leaks a one to two inch circle after setting over night I am happy. Good luck, Keith Craft

The next post by Barry R. (I don’t want to butcher the spelling of his last name):
Amen to that!

I spend way too much time trying to get the rear main seal "perfect" - using a variety of chemicals and such. And I still get a leaker from time to time.

I think an FE is the only engine that you assemble with nails...

I cannot really comment on the amount of leakage or the reasons - that stuff is nigh unto impossible to isolate sometimes even with the car in front of you, much less over the internet.

Five posts later by Keith Craft:
I try to talk about all of the pros and cons to an engine build. As I said earlier when it comes to FE engines the rear main seal is always discussed. We do not have many that leak but every now and then we do. We have spend more time on oil leaks and rear main leaks in the last couple of years than we have making HP. What I mean by that is that the HP is not a issue on these engines and the oil leaks are. We have worked with all sorts of products and methods to try and come up with a full proof method but we still have not got one. If I put 100 engines on the dyno built the same way they will all make the HP they should but we will have a few that will leak. This is what I mean by spending more time working on oil leaks. With the CNC equipement we use on the heads and blocks along with our years of racing FE engines the power is a non issue but that damn rear main seal is still lerking waiting to leak. It really sucks that is for sure. Keith


I feel my comments were objective and fair. You make good points that all engine designs have their problems. 2007 is near 5 years ago maybe thing have improved.

[RodKnock]

The forums here are littered with engine issues, but here are a few recent and randomly selected SBF engines that have had issues:

Ford Racing 427 burning oil

Ford Racing 427w tuning problem

Dissapointing year end with my Roush 427R

Cam Lobe Pictures, Need Analysis Help

Putting aside engines that have bad parts and/or bad combinations and/or bad assembly and/or poor installations, I'm going to guess that as a percentage, SBF's have about the amount of issues as BBF's. At least it's closer than most folks think.

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The forums here are littered with engine issues, but here are a few recent and randomly selected SBF engines that have had issues:

Ford Racing 427 burning oil

Ford Racing 427w tuning problem

Dissapointing year end with my Roush 427R

Cam Lobe Pictures, Need Analysis Help

Putting aside engines that have bad parts and/or bad combinations and/or bad assembly and/or poor installations, I'm going to guess that as a percentage, SBF's have about the amount of issues as BBF's. At least it's closer than most folks think.

I know your just another newbie here but over the last twenty + years it has been pretty much established that car show guys and guys who like to do burnouts prefer FE's and guys who road race prefer small blocks. Has nothing to do with which is better or which is more powerful.
However if your ultimate goal is to be the quickest guy on a road course then a lightly used 358 ci Cup motor makes around 750-800 HP and will spin to 8,500 without breaking a sweat.
You can buy one right now from Roush/Yates performance for about $15,000 complete and nobody is going to pass you on any road course.
Of course you won't be winning any car show trophy's either.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

I know your just another newbie here but over the last twenty + years it has been pretty much established that car show guys and guys who like to do burnouts prefer FE's and guys who road race prefer small blocks.

The discussion the "newbie's" were having, prior to your posting and insult, was about leaks and reliability, not about who runs the road courses better, garners more car show trophies or who can do the best burnouts.

I'm fairly sure that both small blocks and big blocks can do all three (road courses, trophies and burnouts) quite adequately for 99.99% of us newbies as well as the old folks around here at CC.

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The discussion the "newbie's" were having, prior to your posting and insult, was about leaks and reliability, not about who runs the road courses better, garners more car show trophies or who can do the best burnouts.

I'm fairly sure that both small blocks and big blocks can do all three (road courses, trophies and burnouts) quite adequately for 99.99% of us newbies as well as the old folks around here at CC.

If you think I insulted you then I apologize but when I first got interested in Cobras I was a newbie and I also thought the 427FE was the end all in racing engines. My first engine was in fact a SO 427 so I know a little bit about them I also know they are highly prized today and they are better suited to show/street Cobras.
Once you spend some time around the Cobra scene you find out what real experts prefer in racing Cobras. Bob Bondaurant was one of the first to say that the 351 Windsor was a better balanced Cobra for racing.
When Shelby introduced their spec racing Cobra a few years back it was a 427 body with a 351 Windsor so those guys know something about how to make a well balanced race car.
Now if I was in the market for a street Cobra my choice would be a FE powered Kirkham so I am not anti FE.
So lighten up a little nobody is dissing your car or engine choice.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

Now if I was in the market for a street Cobra my choice would be a FE powered Kirkham so I am not anti FE.
So lighten up a little nobody is dissing your car or engine choice.

Ahhhh... A man with taste and perspective