Cam Lobe Pictures, Need Analysis Help

[wrogers55]

I really need some expert advice here. The issue is a scored cam lobe.

In replacing a leaking oil pan gasket, I decided to look around a bit and found the pictures attached. Two witness mark grooves on the cam lobe, in at middle of the motor. Does this look like a roller failure or about to be a roller failure. I could really use some experienced advice here.

Facts as I know them: Bought used, so the internal motor info is not verified, yet.

Motor is a 418 sb, roller Comp Cam, but unknown specs.
Motor made 510 at the wheels, so I guessing the cam is a bit lobe radical.
Rev Limiter is at 6,250[img]


If pictures of the top end valve train would help, I can do that.

Frustrating, I just wanted the tiny leak to stop. Better here than the side of the road I suppose.

Thanks of the help!

[blykins]

What kind of cam is it? Solid or hydraulic? Kinda looks like a cast core cam that's been run with a lot of spring pressure.

[Gaz64]

Wayne,

Unfortunately, looking at your pics you have a skidding roller.

As soon as the roller doesn't roll for some reason ( bearing failure or case hardening of the roller ), the roller skids and cam lobe failure is the result.

Pull the lifter out, have a look at the roller.

I'd say your up for a new cam and lifters.

[blykins]

Good point Gary.....maybe a lifter has already failed.

Wayne, can you feel a lip on the other lobes?

[wrogers55]

Guys, thanks for the quick replies, very helpful.

Your questions:

The cam is a hydraulic roller.

The rest of the lobes, as far as I can see and reach from the bottom, look OK and feel OK. The burned looking area on the cam shaft, next to the scored lobe also got my attention.

This is a 4,000 mile motor that runs great and not a sound coming from the internals. I guess that could be the case right up until it breaks something and breaks something and on and on.

I'm new to little Ford street motors but I guess I'm in for pulling the intake and having a look.

At any rate, new cam and components, right? Anything else to look for or does this just look like an isolated roller failure/almost failure?

I guess the good news is that I was replacing a weeping timing cover gasket as well...and it's currently off too. I guess the blessings are where you find them.

Brent, I'll need some discussion on what to put back in there and get the parts. Might as well go as nasty as possible while I'm at it.

[blykins]

If you can't feel any wear on the other lobes, then I'd say Gary hit the nail on the head. It's possible a lifter had locked up and was sliding. You would think that if it were a spring pressure issue or something like that, that the rest of the lobes would show signs of wear.

I'll be happy to help you Wayne. It's sometimes quicker to talk than type, so if you want to call and chew the fat, just give me a buzz.

[olddog]

Maybe the thingy that bolts to the block and holds all the lifters in alignment didn't hold the lifter correctly. I hate when I cannot remember a word and have to sound like the ignorant hick that I am.

Anyway I only mention it because you do not want to miss the root cause and have a bad part do it to you again. Make sure the lifter bore is good too.

Now the next question is "where did the missing metal go?" Hopefully is was so finely ground that it floated to the oil filter and didn't hang any particles up in a bearing. Is the engine top end stuff that you don't want to take any risk or do you gamble a bit with it? Should the entire engine be disassembled, cleaned, and inspected? Just something to think about. I'm sure we can find people that will argue both sides.

[Rick Parker]

That's how it will happen, individually. They don't all lock up at the same time. Be glad you caught it when you did.
Looks like good components being used:

Pistons:Search Results for 206062 - SummitRacing.com

[wrogers55]

The pictures are a little deceiving I think. The twin "marks" are scores that can barely be felt cutting into the lobe with a finger nail. No metal appears to be lost between the marks.

I have a magnetic drain plug in the pan and it was clean/no metal. I did cut the oil filter open to have a look and again nothing in there either. Could be ultra fine stuff that couldn't see by washing the filter material out, but nothing big enough to see or feel.

I'm going to post more pictures as I go because you guys are good and this is really helpful. At the moment I'm thinking I'll just replace the cam and lifters.....and discuss the pushrods and rockers as I get to them and see what they are and how they look. The motor was supposed to be built all the "right stuff" at a big cost number. So we will see.

Thanks again.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by wrogers55

The motor was supposed to be built all the "right stuff" at a big cost number.

That may be the saving grace....good equipment can be an investment in longevity as well as in power!!

Cheers, Dugly

[Gaz64]

Wayne,

Have you inspected the roller?

Can you post pics of the lifter roller?

We can see the overheated blueing on the shaft which extends further away from the lobe on the base circle compared to the nose.

It shows the amount of friction the failed roller has caused.

You may not be able to feel it with your fingernail, but it is there, it is an abnormal wear pattern, and it would have become a catastrophic failure.

The ground up metal, as small as it is, would have passed through the oil pump first before the oil filter traps it.

Inspect your oil pump as well.

[Rick Parker]

There is definate bluing as mentioned near the visable lobe, however it is unclear if it is confined to only this lobe OR if it is indicative of the hardening for each lobe during the manufacturing process?? IMO if the roller had frozen there would be more significant metal tranfer. There is no doubt a problem with the lifter but it appears to be at the initial stage of failure. JMO

[joyridin']

I'm by no means an expert, but it looks like a soft lobe to me. The last 2 times I saw a roller seize, the cam was a pretty nice shade of blue. This has no heat marks.

Just my 2 cents.

[concobra]

Hello wroger55

My 2 cents worth

I don't think the problem is all that bad. I have ran rollers for ten years plus and seen this kind of pattern on many good lobes. As long as it is not diggin into the lobe I have not had a problem. It may be just the lifter spinning on the lobe. And a normal wear pattern.

As far as the blueing. My experience is if the roller stops spinning it will tear up the lobe extremely fast and you will maybe see some blueing on the lobe itself. But more than likely the gouging of the hardened roller grinds through the heat bluing faster than the blueing can remain on the lobe. I don't see any signs of that. I believe the discoloration between the lobes is due to the heat treating billet roller cams get to harden the lobes. The dark color beside the lobe, not on it, could just be the copper discoloring during the heat treating operation when the cam core is made. Copper is used on the core of the cam to keep it from hardening as hard as the lobe does to keep the shaft from becoming brittle. I have bought many new cams with this coloring issue here defined as bluing already there.

Hey I could be wrong here. But testing the roller is certainly called for. One note of importance. If you do test your lifter DO NOT clean it in any solvent. Leave the oil on it, it was running in. IF you have to take the rollers out of your engine. Place them in the cleanest container you can and pour oil over them completely then cover the container.

You might consider giving Scott Main a call at Cam Research. And send him the pictures. He is a great guy and will know how to help you. ( After all he is a cam expert unlike me) He can also grind you a new cam if needed. He only does Ford cams and has been a contender in Engine Masters for years. He does all my cams for me and is always spot on when you give him good information to work with.

If you want Scotts phone # you can give me your number and I will call you after I speak to him and get his OK. I will give you his #.

[wrogers55]

Anyone know where a CompCam is marked for ID/model number?

[blykins]

On the end....should be a grind number or a set of lobe numbers.

[wrogers55]

Finally got the cam out of my little 418 and need help with identification. Supposed to be a Comp Cam and it is a hydraulic roller. I can't find the numbers on CC's consumer site. Can someone decipher the numbers and possible manufacturer.

Easier to read off of the camshaft. The numbers are:

3318F / 3319F HR112.0
CC (or LL at the center right)
251668
G2009-05 (that could be 0.5, but prob. not)

Looks like it was installed advanced 4 degrees on the crank sprocket which I suppose is +2 at the cam. Was a very strong cam.

I'll report more on what I'm finding on the lobes and rollers as I go, but I'm going to replace the cam and whatever else I need to anyway in an abundance of caution. I need to get something on order and hoping Brent is one of the responders.

[blykins]

It's a pretty healthy cam. The 3318 and the 3319 are the lobe numbers, which translates to:

248/254, .638/.658" lift (with a 1.7RR) and it was ground on a 112 LSA.

These are Xtreme Energy lobes and I'm sure it was a custom cam as the Xtreme cams don't come with a longer LSA like that. I've had Comp send custom cams with the LSA equalling the ICL (straight up) and then I've had them send them 4 degrees advanced, so it's hard to say without degreeing it where the ICL actually is on yours.

I like that kind of combination, a good amount of duration, but a longer lobe center to help with low manners. However, that's a lot of duration for a hydraulic roller and I don't know if you'd really be able to use most of the cam's potential without floating the valves.

Are you still planning on swapping to a solid roller? Or you want to stay hydraulic?

[Rick Parker]

It looks to be one of the most aggressive lobes for the Extreme Energy Roller series. IMO if the lobe centers "could" be tightened up it would become even more aggressive by concentrating the torque in a narrower band.

[blykins]

They can be ordered with any LSA. Like you say, a tighter lobe center will narrow the powerband, but it will also increase overlap, which may or may not be a benefit, depending on the application. It will also decrease piston/valve clearance because of the overlap...you're hanging the valves open longer which increases the chance of bumping one into a piston.

I usually don't use the Xtreme Energy series cams when I do a hydraulic roller, but try to stick with the XFI lobes.