428 CJ oil pressure

[wemooz]

I had been running 20W 50 oil in my car, and neglected to mention this when I had the oil changed. I suspect that I got 20W 30 or some other lower viscosity and now my oil pressure is lower. What should it be? Bill

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by wemooz

I had been running 20W 50 oil in my car, and neglected to mention this when I had the oil changed. I suspect that I got 20W 30 or some other lower viscosity and now my oil pressure is lower. What should it be? Bill

You will get a lot of different answers to that question, and it will also depend on the tolerances to which your engine was built, your oil pump, etc. But, with that said, if you can muster 10 lbs. of pressure per 1000 RPM you will generally be ok. Your idle pressure is not terribly important. My FE, when nice and hot, will idle in the upper teens, but the pressure comes instantly up when I touch the throttle. From the factory, FEs dropping to under 10 lbs. at idle were not uncommon, and the oil light came on around 6 lbs. From the 1965 Ford manual...

[Grubby]

10 psi at idle is fine. I wouldn't expect a noticeable difference in pressure between 20w-50 and 10w-30.

John

[blykins]

I had an all-aluminum 482FE on the pump on Friday. With .0020-.0023" main clearances (cold), .0025" rod clearances, and a HV/SP oil pump, it idled at 38-40 psi hot, and at full song she was reading around 70-72 psi. That was with Comp Cams 10W-30 break-in oil.

Most of my FE's usually hit somewhere around that range, give or take 10psi.

[RICK LAKE]

wemooz Bill we don't have alot of info on your motor but here's the things
If that little guy who sits on your shoulder is telling you something, LISTEN. 98% of the time he is right. Drain it and change it. New oil and filter with an oil additive too. Pour this in when the motor oil is warm.
Look we have been fighting on oil pressure for years and this will not stop.
FE motors have heavy bottom ends, the 10 psi for 1,000 rpms is a SMALL BLOCK CHEVY motor. I wish the guys would cut the BULL on this. The oil has changed in the last 20 years to less protection, cleaning, and zinc. Why do you think that Joe Gibbs sells special oils if off the self will do the same??WE are talking FE,FE. Here's the thing, your gauge is at the oil pump, what you are reading is at the front of the motor, not the back. You can loose anywhere from 10psi to 40 psi pressure from the front to the back of the block. Some motors I have added oil pipes to balance out and supply more oil to the back of the motor. This applies to solid and hydro lifter motors. As far as SO blocks, this is a different designed block but still needs high oil pressure with a loose bottom end. The old masters will tell you this time and time again. Most motors died from oil starvation and not weak parts.
I have a similar motor to Brent B. with a 482 stroker. I have tighter bottom end with .0018"-.0020" mains and same on rods of under .002". I run a 100# HVHP oil pump. 15-40 Rotella diesel oil and suppliments. My idle is 35-38 hot idle at 750 rpms and 70-85 psi at race track speed. I don't let the motor idle if possible. The ONLY time is on startup and warming the oil in the motor. My rpms are at 1,000-1,100 rpms. The FI system controls this. Put limiters in the heads for .080" oriface. This will give you good oil coverage on the rockers and moving parts and should almost flood the valve springs and coole them. They make alot of heat. Returns are important too. Getting off soapbox, change oil and filter and take car out for 10-15 mile road test. Tell us what the numbers are when you get back. If back to normal, car is good. If not you might want to check over oil pump, spring and plunger in housing. It might not be sealing 100% and bleeding oil pressure.
Last note, did you over rev it or bang the rev limiter, or miss a gear shifting?? All can cause possible damage to motor. Might have stretched a rod bolt or hurt a bearing if the oil pressure doesn't return to before readings. Sorry to be the bad guy with info but this may also save you a $15-30K motor with a minor repair of the motor. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

FE motors have heavy bottom ends, the 10 psi for 1,000 rpms is a SMALL BLOCK CHEVY motor. I wish the guys would cut the BULL on this.

Rick, I say you're 100% wrong on that claim and, in support of my position , I'll cite this post from Barry R. -- an FE engine builder up there in "the rarified air." So, what say you?



Source: oil pressure fe 390

[wemooz]

OK, armed with the data that you posted for me, I ran some tests. First, at outside temperature of 70 degrees, I started the cold car. It idled at 1100 RPM and the oil pressure gauge read 65 PSI. Then I ran the car until the oil temperature was at 160 degrees F. At 900 RPM idle, the oil pressure was 35 PSI. At 2000 RPM it was about 58 PSI, as close as I could read the gauge. Over 2000 RPM, the pressure was always above 60 PSI. I am guessing that everything is OK, but with the more viscous oil the pressure was a bit higher. Bill

[FWB]

hell....your fine....drive it

[RICK LAKE]

PatrickT Pat Barry is a 1/4 mile racer and Dyno motor builder. I have no issues with him, If he want to run lower pressures on FE motors, so be it. THis is how he gets repeat work, Ever think of that?? I believe I will have to pull up the engine masters spec on that motor.
First off, it's a dyno motor, as stated needs to last 3 pulls after that it could be junk.
Second I think this had an under size bottom end or a BBC bottom end. BBC rods are wider and you don't need the higher pressures, how ever if the thing is solid roller or lifter again you are back to old school.
You don't even know what I am talking about with a heavy bottom end. FE motors have some of the heaviest rods on motor up to 454. Crank shaft is the same. Pistons are lighter that some of the others depend on skirt length.
The rod rod width is the same as a 289-351 windsor motor with a rotating mass of about 10-20 pounds lighter, same for a SBC. wide bearings lower oil pressures.
Third If the FE bottom end is so great, then why in the early 80's did guys racing 1/4 mile swap over to Hemi cranks and rods?? Weight!!, wider bearings.
Why are we running stroker kits with BBC rods and bearings and not have FE cranks stroked and long rods??? Maybe you should look at some bearings for width and size. If FE motors had a great bottom end then why did they goto crossdrilled crankshafts and rods that weighted 1000+ grams, (NASCAR). I have a set of lemans rods in the basement, new in the box and a set of BBC rods of 6.7 ratio H beam, guess which one is heavier??
As a lawyer, you have nothing better to do than be a pain in the ass and use other peoples info and cite old threads. If you read what you copied, 10 psi at idle is not enough. 30-40 is safe for a street motor at idle. For racing autocross and roadracing 65-85 psi is safe with a wet sump system. We have little to no info on this motor of Bill's.
It's a damn shame that some of the best FE builders will no come of this forumn to talk any more due to people like you that just know every F--king thing about everything. Jay Brown started his own forumn because of clowns who think they know more than him. Drag week champion in 2 different cars.
Every machinist should be building motors to their customers specs and what they intend to do with their car. Some builds do and some donot.
I talk to 2-3 people a week off this forumn and give the best info I have to avoid the BS that comes from people who have not ever build a motor or car. I have talked to the best builders of FE over the years, including Barry R and a host of others that have anywhere from 10 years to 50+ years of building FE motors. ARTICLES of around 100 with every build I could find. It's all good info. You must have a problem where you work to have over 13,000 messages on this forumn alone, business must be slow. It's a free country to a point and I am not going to answer any more of your, (I think,say, believe, or got a reading from Queen Cleo hot line of info). Maybe you should run for President. Can't get any worse with you at the wheel. Rick L. Ps you want rare air, start with Joe B. in Cali and then hit Gessford machine. These 2 shops have and still set the table for who sits at the ends. One guy you know nothing about for starters. Have a nice day.

[patrickt]

Rick, you're almost as much fun to work-up as ERAChas, but he's still the champ. He had more of a "slow-simmer" before he blew.

[RICK LAKE]

Patrickt You think that this is funny. It's not. Someone is looking for correct info and you sit in the cheap seats and be a pain in the A$$. This is why people stop posting on here and get fed up with this crap. If Barry R is your new GOD, great. Why don't you read the article in jan of 09 about the 505 motor with BBC rods and scat crankshaft. Like said before, you don't know a hell of alot about this subject and why things are done. Again this motor could be used on the street but was built for a dyno event. Have a nice day. Rick

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Rick, you're almost as much fun to work-up as ERAChas, but he's still the champ. He had more of a "slow-simmer" before he blew.

Rick forgets that you're 'The Village idiot" and actually treats you as though you know something.
He tries to educate you instead of just laughing at you.

[undy]

We've got problems, right here in River City... Sometimes you just have to face the music, man.

[FWB]

Originally Posted by undy

We've got problems, right here in River City... Sometimes you just have to face the music, man.

hhehe, your showing your age with that song quote..........

well i guess i am too for recognizing that

[patrickt]

Rick, in my first post on this thread I wrote "you'll get a lot of different answers to your question." Your position of the necessity of high PSI numbers is in the minority camp. You mentioned Gessford; he is on record on the FE forum supporting the position that high oil pressure numbers in an FE just aren't necessary -- I remember the thread vividly, and I believe that to be the majority view among FE builders and the experienced Ford servicemen and racers on that forum (Bobby S. comes to mind). As you know, my build is like most FE strokers and has a SCAT crank with 6.7" BBC rods. I had this exact oil pressure conversation with Joe at Danbury Competition seven years ago. His response was "Pat, I can build it to make any pressure you want, but, in my opinion, high numbers aren't needed." Now Rick, it's not like a lobbed a grenade at you. I simply took issue with your statement, cited a respected FE builder, and invited you to respond (I could have ripped the Gessford quote as well). I made no personal attack (unlike Chas and I -- we love to lob grenades at one other and make personal attacks). Now, don't you think you kind of overreacted a bit? Maybe just a little?

[wemooz]

I guess after all of this discussion that my oil pressure is OK and that if I now have 20W-30 oil in my crankcase instead of 20W-50 it is still OK. But I thank one and all for the information. Bill

[RICK LAKE]

Patrick T. Pat Lets look at you statements, lets start with Gessford Machine
I have know George for 14 years, went out to his track, visit the boys and ladies there too. Neil is the #1 machinist there and does about 90% of the motor work now and has been doing it for the last 7-10 years. With the track, George has little time for shop work. Niel has stated that DEPENDING on what rotating mass is in the bottom end, how high an rpm range, and HOW loose the bearing clearance is has alot to do with oil pressure. Also weather the motor has FE rods and crankshaft or a stroker kit with BBC rods. Also the clearance on the rods and mains come into play. What oil weight you are running and additives. Last and most important, how abusive are you going to be to the motor??? RPM limit. Neil, (master machinist) has run from stock pumps with 60# springs for street motor in stock form to 7,500 rpm buzzers with loose bottom ends and 100# HVHP pumps. They like also to run W10-40 to straight race #50 oil in there motors again depending on usage of motor. Idling is a questionable issue because of valvetrain and how must oil is getting to the back of the motor at idle. 30 psi on the gauge doesn't mean same on the back rod bearings of 4,7,&8.Georges motor ever breaks and he throws the keys to the boys and said rebuild it. The motor is Georges car was one of the last ones he build about 10 years ago.
Joe at Danbury, ERA gets about 75% of their motors from him. He's been building FE for ERA for the last 20 years. I must have caught him on a bad day. I went there to see about building an FE motor and came away with little info, didn't seam to have time for me, and didn't have any info on the Shelby blocks and about building one. Today is a different story after the first 50+blocks where fixed from a number of machined problems in the castings. O'hay, Gessford corrected alot of these problems and passed on the fixes. I have CSX#58 and also CSX#428 blocks. Back to Joe, explained about what I was going to do with car and wanted basic maintainance. Basic answer was what ever you want. I can get this from my other half and it will not cost $15K to do. Ended up build my own motor with some help on clearances, blueprinting short block and assembly. Because of autocross and road course racing, larger oil system with just under 13 quarts of oil, a 100# HVHP blueprinted oil pump and proper warmup procedure. 7 years on the all 452 bottom end and no problems with it. starting year #8 with 482 stroker and bottom end is still looking like justed assemblied. Torque motors don't need to be pushed as hard as HP motors. 6,000 rpm limit with the correct gearing and trans gearing to get the most from an mid range torque motor
Bottom line, if you have a truck load of money there are plenty of guys out there to help you send it. If you have this much money, some people don't care about this stuff. If you spend 20+ years saving nickles, dimes and quarters to build a dream, and send the other 25+ years wrenching on motors you learn what works and what doesn't. I have been told by your godish people the high pressure will prewear out bearings. I am still waiting to see that first set of bottom end bearings. Every body talks but nobody shows, kind of funny like. Last note Barry R. was layed off from his job at F-M bearings. In the first engine masters he did real good with an FE and this got him on the map. This is how he makes his living now with building and selling parts. I brought my stroker kit from him and would recommend to anybody buy his kits. The clearances where spot on and this motor runs great. Jay Brown has the time, a couple of dynos and money to build and test FE motors and SOHC ones. 2 time champ of Drag week. Have read both books cover to cover. I agree with alot of the info but also question some too. At least I am up front with people and don't have to cite info from other threads. Same info today same 10 years ago. It's a real shame you don't see that ERA Chas is not as understanding as you think. As far as a grenade with him, he would pull the pin and stuff it down your pants and wave bye-bye to the village fool. You have a nice evening. Schools out and closed. Rick L.

[patrickt]

Alright Rick, we'll just let the thread die....

[ItBites]

Edited to delete my rant. This site used to be fun and informative... Now its just sad and I don't mean to/want to contribute to that.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ItBites

...Just sayin'

And I chalked it up to the economy.... Alright, point taken. And you got to watch that elmariachi. But what bugs me the most is that he claims I taught him everything he knows....