Top Loader to a TKO600, Any Regrets?

[Jeff Frigo]

Has anybody ever gone from a top loader to a TKO600 and regretted it? .82, or .64 OD?

[eschaider]

Unless you get the Liberty shift kit and carbon fiber synchs (or equivalent) the 2/3 shift is going to be disappointing.

Because of the way Tremec chose to manufacture the countershaft there is a 0.140" or so mis-alignment between the main shaft and countershaft third gears. If you make ~ 500 - 600 ft/lbs of torque and can properly speed shift into third and also hook up in third gear you have an improved chance of breaking third gear.

In fairness the poor 2/3 shift quality of the stock box goes a long way to protecting third. Even if you get the 2/3 shift fix you still have to be able to hook it up in third gear - which at the 600 ft/lb TQ level can be challenging. Bottom line is you probably won't break it, unless you are very good.

You will love the OD on the highway. The 0.82 OD feels more like a next gear. The 0.64 OD feels like a big gulp when you let the clutch out. If your motor has a lumpy idle and challenged drivability is high gear below 2000 rpm you will not find the ODs as attractive as you might suspect. The 0.64 OD on a engine with driveability issues below 2000 rpm will feel like a land speed record gear because of how fast the car will be going to get away from the bucking and farting of the engine at high load and low rpm.

On the other hand an engine with good drivability and manners below 2000 rpm will be an absolute pleasure to put into (.82) OD on the expressway. The .64 OD will still feel a lot like a LSR gear but with much reduced bucking and farting.

Ed

[mkassab]

I started my build with a TKO 600 with no complaints. In conversations with other Cobra owners I most often hear I wish I had a 5th gear..... and have never heard the opposite.

Mark

[Anthony]

the tko600 is really like a wide ratio tranny with an overdrive, gear ratio's similar to a wide ratio toploader, but with an overdrive. If you would run a wide ratio toploader, you can run a 3.07 rear ratio, and then in 4th, you would not need an overdrive. With a close ratio toploader,you need to run about a 3.54 rear ratio. I think the toploader is simpler, durable, maybe easier to fix.

If you want a race-like tranny, get a close ratio, either a toploader, richmond 5spd,etc. which have gears spaced about 23% i think. If you want a tranny for economy, i'd just get a wide ratio toploader with a 3.07 rear. Yes, you can get a tko600, but i'd get the 0.82 5th. If you already have the toploader, you can do a gear change.

Any of them will be fine.

[Jeff Frigo]

I have a wide ratio top loader in the car already, with a 3.73 gear.

[lovehamr]

With all the torque from a BB, it doesn't need to be turning 3500rpm on the highway. I think you'd love the the .82 OD (I do) and the shifting is greatly improved by going to a better shifter. Much like going from the stock Ford shifter on a toploader to a competition plus. To sum it up, if you have the means, time, ability etc. do it and I don't think you'll look back.

[SPF1061]

Originally Posted by Anthony

the tko600 is really like a wide ratio tranny with an overdrive, gear ratio's similar to a wide ratio toploader, but with an overdrive. If you would run a wide ratio toploader, you can run a 3.07 rear ratio, and then in 4th, you would not need an overdrive. With a close ratio toploader,you need to run about a 3.54 rear ratio. I think the toploader is simpler, durable, maybe easier to fix.

If you want a race-like tranny, get a close ratio, either a toploader, richmond 5spd,etc. which have gears spaced about 23% i think. If you want a tranny for economy, i'd just get a wide ratio toploader with a 3.07 rear. Yes, you can get a tko600, but i'd get the 0.82 5th. If you already have the toploader, you can do a gear change.

Any of them will be fine.

Anthony -
I found your post pretty misleading. The TKO600 is NOT NECESSARILY a wide ratio transmission with an OD. It can be had as an overdrive with the .64 or as a road race with a true 5th gear at .82. Simple as that. Shifting issues, torque capacity, blah, blah, blah may all be factors to consider.

[madmaxx]

To shift from 2 to 3 on a tko 600 I have always just pushed the gear lever forward open palm and never missed it in thousands of shifts. Dont try to find it just push forward, works perfect.

[mdross1]

My car with toploader and 3:55 was too much on long runs.So when redoing engine bought a new Tremec TKO and regeared to a 3:70 behind the 460 as far as I am concerned now have the perfect drivetrain.Only complaint was the the top loader was a silky shifting trans loved it,the Tremec at first was very hard to powershift,now wearing in beautifully.

[decooney]

Originally Posted by Jeff Frigo

I have a wide ratio top loader in the car already, with a 3.73 gear.

Jeff,
For what its worth - IF you really love the butter shift Top Loader and do not drive the car on the highway for long stretches very often, you might consider a change to the rear axle ratio first before you give up that TL. I run a TKO 600 in a another car, but can't seem to let go of the TL in my FE Cobra. You know what I mean...Wow, 3.73 is crazy low in a big torquey 454 like that, no need for it in a 2500lb car. If you can pick up a second rear diff center section with 3.31 or even 3.08 and try it, it will transform your car. I think its more fun to drive too as it makes 1st gear more usable without always blowing off the rear tires, especially with a 3.08 - acts like a slingshot. A WR TL has a low enough first gear to work with and its not so low that its unusable. I've tried 3.31 and 3.08 in both of my FE powered Cobras. I prefer 3.31 for around town for trips say under 100 miles at a time. If I was doing longer drives I'd do a 3.08 rear. I have 3.31 now, and might go back to 3.08 myself down the road. For now, 3.31 with a WR TL is still really nice - especially if you have a larger cam in your FE and want to keep the rpms up a little to run it in sweet spot while crusing around.

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by eschaider

Unless you get the Liberty shift kit and carbon fiber synchs (or equivalent) the 2/3 shift is going to be disappointing.

Because of the way Tremec chose to manufacture the countershaft there is a 0.140" or so mis-alignment between the main shaft and countershaft third gears. If you make ~ 500 - 600 ft/lbs of torque and can properly speed shift into third and also hook up in third gear you have an improved chance of breaking third gear.

In fairness the poor 2/3 shift quality of the stock box goes a long way to protecting third. Even if you get the 2/3 shift fix you still have to be able to hook it up in third gear - which at the 600 ft/lb TQ level can be challenging. Bottom line is you probably won't break it, unless you are very good.

You will love the OD on the highway. The 0.82 OD feels more like a next gear. The 0.64 OD feels like a big gulp when you let the clutch out. If your motor has a lumpy idle and challenged drivability is high gear below 2000 rpm you will not find the ODs as attractive as you might suspect. The 0.64 OD on a engine with driveability issues below 2000 rpm will feel like a land speed record gear because of how fast the car will be going to get away from the bucking and farting of the engine at high load and low rpm.

On the other hand an engine with good drivability and manners below 2000 rpm will be an absolute pleasure to put into (.82) OD on the expressway. The .64 OD will still feel a lot like a LSR gear but with much reduced bucking and farting.

Ed

Spot on.

E

[Grubby]

I went from a wide ratio toploader with 3.07 to a TKO600 / .64 with 3.54.

First gear was too long and hard to start moving easily with the 4 sp. In addition 3.07 did not feel like enough gear. The car felt somewhat weak.

Now in town driving is wonderful and the car is really strong off the line.

I do a mix of driving from 4 lane highway to interstate. On the highway the .64 is to high and you can't use it, but it is just right to cruise at 70-80mph.

The TKO is a great trans.

John

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

To shift from 2 to 3 on a tko 600 I have always just pushed the gear lever forward open palm and never missed it in thousands of shifts. Dont try to find it just push forward, works perfect.

Agree. At first the second to third shift seemed a little clunky, but over time you don't even think about it. Seems like it loosened up a little over time after putting some miles on the car. I'm also using the Steeda Tri-Ax, which helps.

[ekrupa2]

#2632 has the TKO 600 with .82 5th gear. I absolutely loved this setup coupled with the Roush 402. Like mentioned, third gear is a natural shift, open palm straight away and I dont think I ever missed a shift, even under throttle. If you are doing as much highway as street and backroad, you may want to consider the .64 fifth. Depending on your setup, it may rev a bit too high on the highway for your liking. Work the calculator numbers and it will give you a great sense of your revs.

BTW Doug, #2632 sold and departed on to a former SPF owner who now lives in Wisconsin. There is a big empty space in my garage and my heart...but I am happy of the future plans for the car. I may keep posting from time to time just because I loved that car so much...and the people associated with them are a great group.

[decooney]

Based on Jeff's post and profile, it appears he is running a stroked 427 for 454ci. I bet its a torquey motor that has plenty of grunt to pull right through 1st gear easy with a WR TL. No problem. My car is actually faster off the line and out of the hole with a taller 1st gear and taller rear gear ratio such as 3.31 or 3.08. Have run a few side by side comparisons and at the drag strip. I can take off in 4th gear from a dead start with my FE and 3.31s. Same with my last Cobra FE with 3.08s. As for the TKO in a Big Block Cobra, I think as long as you get a TKO 600 or custom built one with out such a low 1st gear it would be fine. Most complain its a waste and start out in 2nd if they need to get off the line quicker with less tire spin.
As for "notchy" I too noticed the TKO 600s loosen up with some time on them but nothing close to the butter shifting TL, even with mods.

[Obsessive]

Originally Posted by decooney

Jeff,
For what its worth - IF you really love the butter shift Top Loader and do not drive the car on the highway for long stretches very often, you might consider a change to the rear axle ratio first before you give up that TL. I run a TKO 600 in a another car, but can't seem to let go of the TL in my FE Cobra. You know what I mean...Wow, 3.73 is crazy low in a big torquey 454 like that, no need for it in a 2500lb car. If you can pick up a second rear diff center section with 3.31 or even 3.08 and try it, it will transform your car. I think its more fun to drive too as it makes 1st gear more usable without always blowing off the rear tires, especially with a 3.08 - acts like a slingshot. A WR TL has a low enough first gear to work with and its not so low that its unusable. I've tried 3.31 and 3.08 in both of my FE powered Cobras. I prefer 3.31 for around town for trips say under 100 miles at a time. If I was doing longer drives I'd do a 3.08 rear. I have 3.31 now, and might go back to 3.08 myself down the road. For now, 3.31 with a WR TL is still really nice - especially if you have a larger cam in your FE and want to keep the rpms up a little to run it in sweet spot while crusing around.

I have to agree. I've built a couple of these (Cobras with 427 FE motors stroked with a 428 crank) and my favorite combination is the WR TL with 3.08 rear end. I recently, went through my CSX and detuned the motor with a more streetable cam (.507 lift with 274/284 duration), blueprinted the Holley 850 DP and it now feels like the best street set-up I've ever experienced. Personally, I love the character of the car without the 5th gear but enjoy the high gearing for freeway speeds. The motor has way more torque and HP than any of us really need on the street and this seems to be an excellent combination. I have a shifter that I purchased from Dan Williams Toploader years ago and it's nearly perfect. My only complaint with the shifter is that it abandoned the reverse lockout. Call me quirky, but I actually liked that feature in the original set-up. I'm a sucker for originality and the 4spd TL satisfies my need for it being correct. However, my inner hot rodder side took some liberties and I really enjoy this set up.

Hope this helps.

[LightNFast]

Originally Posted by Obsessive

I have to agree. I've built a couple of these (Cobras with 427 FE motors stroked with a 428 crank) and my favorite combination is the WR TL with 3.08 rear end. I recently, went through my CSX and detuned the motor with a more streetable cam (.507 lift with 274/284 duration), blueprinted the Holley 850 DP and it now feels like the best street set-up I've ever experienced. Personally, I love the character of the car without the 5th gear but enjoy the high gearing for freeway speeds. The motor has way more torque and HP than any of us really need on the street and this seems to be an excellent combination. I have a shifter that I purchased from Dan Williams Toploader years ago and it's nearly perfect. My only complaint with the shifter is that it abandoned the reverse lockout. Call me quirky, but I actually liked that feature in the original set-up. I'm a sucker for originality and the 4spd TL satisfies my need for it being correct. However, my inner hot rodder side took some liberties and I really enjoy this set up.

Hope this helps.

"I'm a sucker for originality"

Same here Obsessive. I think having the original configuration adds to the experience. There's probably not too many original CSX's running TKO's either.

Anyway, if you'd like to have the reverse-lockout feature restored, I'd highly recommend contacting Bill Heeley at fordshifterinfo@verizon.net. He restored mine back to original condition and yes, the lockout feature really is pretty cool!

Best of luck!
Regards,

[Jeff Frigo]

Originally Posted by LightNFast

"I'm a sucker for originality"

Same here Obsessive. I think having the original configuration adds to the experience. There's probably not too many original CSX's running TKO's either.

Anyway, if you'd like to have the reverse-lockout feature restored, I'd highly recommend contacting Bill Heeley at fordshifterinfo@verizon.net. He restored mine back to original condition and yes, the lockout feature really is pretty cool!

Best of luck!
Regards,

There better not be ANY original CSX's with TKO's.

[Jeff Frigo]

Originally Posted by decooney

Based on Jeff's post and profile, it appears he is running a stroked 427 for 454ci. I bet its a torquey motor that has plenty of grunt to pull right through 1st gear easy with a WR TL. No problem. My car is actually faster off the line and out of the hole with a taller 1st gear and taller rear gear ratio such as 3.31 or 3.08. Have run a few side by side comparisons and at the drag strip. I can take off in 4th gear from a dead start with my FE and 3.31s. Same with my last Cobra FE with 3.08s. As for the TKO in a Big Block Cobra, I think as long as you get a TKO 600 or custom built one with out such a low 1st gear it would be fine. Most complain its a waste and start out in 2nd if they need to get off the line quicker with less tire spin.
As for "notchy" I too noticed the TKO 600s loosen up with some time on them but nothing close to the butter shifting TL, even with mods.

You are correct. I have a .030 over '27 with a '28 crank. Makes tons of torque. The top loader is a WR. I have started many times in 3rd. gear by mistake without a problem.

[Jeff Frigo]

OK, I have a 1976 Penton 250 GS6 I may sell. Now the toughest question, .82 or .64 OD?