"Sorting out" Issues...

[TButtrick]

All of my failures have been engine/ignition related. Should have gone with Ford Motorsports and simple electronic ignition from the get-go. Many upgrades like 3 link, later Ford spindles/rotors for pin drive knock offs, etc. Other than some worn out door hinges, and a replaced pitted windscreen, I only rebuilt the rear clutch pack and no other chassis or running gear problems in ten years and 90,000 miles. Preventive maintenance is key. I'm going for a ride!

[mreid]

So, Steve, what kind of "sorting out" issues are you having? Perhaps we could be more help knowing what kinds of trouble you are experiencing.

[MRGEORGE077]

An excellent question and yes one would expect that if you bought a new Cobra from a dealer you would have fewer problems. The following are issues that I faced upon delivery, from an authorized Shelby dealer, after a very long wait on baby for a CSX car.

Upon arrival, the following issues existed.

1. Speedometer was registering 20 miles off because of wrong gear in transmission.
2. Tachometer wasn’t working because dip switches had not been properly set.
3. Carburetors were blowing raw fuel on to the engine, floats were set to high.
4. Brakes were only working at around 50% had to flush and adjust.
5. Left wheel bearing had to be adjusted.
6. Radiator expansion tank was leaking antifreeze into the engine compartment, had to be replaced.
7. All four wheels were out of alignment and had to be realigned.

After 200 miles, I experience the following additional issues.

1.T-bar reverse lockout on the shifter broke.

2.Remote starter solenoid failed and had to be replaced.

3.Exhaust system improperly installed and was generating excess heat in the cockpit area; muffler after 100 miles was beginning to burn the drivers and passenger side foot pan out. Exhaust system re-engineered and interior as well as exterior heat reflected material installed.

After 300 miles, the following additional issues came up.

1. Transmission will not shift into third or fourth gear; this issue will have to be addressed when we receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

2. Parking Brake does not fully disengage rear wheels this issue will have to be addressed when receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

Other than that it’s a great automobile that I look forward to, after fully shorting out, one day, enjoying the car.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

An excellent question and yes one would expect that if you bought a new Cobra from a dealer you would have fewer problems. The following are issues that I faced upon delivery, from an authorized Shelby dealer, after a very long wait on baby for a CSX car.

The speedo gear, tach switches, setting the floats, bleeding the brakes, making sure there are no coolant leaks, aligning the wheels, and making sure the exhaust is positioned right, IMO, is the job of whoever dropped in your engine/trans. The wheel bearing should have been right from the outset, but that could just have been a fluke. The T-Bar and solenoid could have happened to anybody at any time. Regarding the shifting problem, I bet your bellhousing was never aligned -- that's a reasonable PITA and I bet your guy just skipped over it, since he seemed to skip over some other basic "get it ready" type jobs. That would be a pisser alright.

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The speedo gear, tach switches, setting the floats, bleeding the brakes, making sure there are no coolant leaks, aligning the wheels, and making sure the exhaust is positioned right, IMO, is the job of whoever dropped in your engine/trans. The wheel bearing should have been right from the outset, but that could just have been a fluke. The T-Bar and solenoid could have happened to anybody at any time. Regarding the shifting problem, I bet your bellhousing was never aligned -- that's a reasonable PITA and I bet your guy just skipped over it, since he seemed to skip over some other basic "get it ready" type jobs. That would be a pisser alright.

You got that correct my friend, just can't wait to see what else breaks after we get all of this fixed.I tool delivery in May and it's been in and out of the shop most of the time.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

You got that correct my friend, just can't wait to see what else breaks after we get all of this fixed.I tool delivery in May and it's been in and out of the shop most of the time.

My goodness, that has to be incredibly frustrating, to lay out that kind of $$ and get a car that for all intents and purposes is unusable.

There is only one "kit builder" type of business in the Houston area of which I am aware, and one person who specializes in the F5R products, but for those areas where the well known builders are located I bet there is a real need for a mechanic-type business where the focus is to inspect the car before delivery is taken and point out areas that need further attention while it is still in the hands of the builder...sort of like a building inspector, but focused on component cars.

Rest assured, though, something else WILL break...it's just the nature of these things, there is always SOMETHING that needs attention. For those of us who are mechanically inclined and enjoy fiddling around with these toys, that can be a source of joy, but when the issues require expensive attention by specialists (like mine, nobody can figure out why I have low beams and not high beams despite changing out the switch and both halogen bulbs) who charge $80/hr and take their sweet time it can get infuriatingly expensive, not to mention frustrating!

Good luck, George.....

Cheers!

Dugly

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

You got that correct my friend, just can't wait to see what else breaks after we get all of this fixed.I tool delivery in May and it's been in and out of the shop most of the time.

You know, you have a very expensive car, and you no doubt paid a good bit of money to someone, whom you trusted, to do a lot of things that, apparently, were not done. Putting the safety aspect aside for the moment, it's not as if he tried and just did it poorly, but rather he didn't even try at all. He knew what he was skipping over, and he knew that he shouldn't do that, not tell you, and still take your money; but he did it anyway. It's really just stealing, and you have a right to be angry.

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by patrickt

You know, you have a very expensive car, and you no doubt paid a good bit of money to someone, whom you trusted, to do a lot of things that, apparently, were not done. Putting the safety aspect aside for the moment, it's not as if he tried and just did it poorly, but rather he didn't even try at all. He knew what he was skipping over, and he knew that he shouldn't do that, not tell you, and still take your money; but he did it anyway. It's really just stealing, and you have a right to be angry.

100% Agreed. Someone is accountable and you may have to hold their feet to the fire. If you can't get satisfaction from a personal plea to the responsible party, post the details publicly and you're sure to get quick action if they want to continue doing business with this crowd.

[MRGEORGE077]

After reading the opinions and remarks concerning one of my original posts, which you’ll find at the bottom of this communication, I have come to the following conclusion based upon the contract that I had with the dealer “seller “of my CSX 8000 car.

The contract that I had with a Shelby American authorized dealer specified the following:

Sales Agreement

Between Name of Dealer

And

Purchaser My Name

In consideration of the covenants and agreements contained in this sales agreement, the parties to this agreement agree as follows:

Sales of Goods

The seller will sell, transfer and deliver to the purchaser on before___________________ the following goods (“goods”):

CSX xxxx Shelby Cobra chassis unit with fiberglass body and component roller, Engine for CSX xxxx, 1965 289 Hi Pro motor, Runner kit for CSX car xxxx and all labor to assemble parts, install engine, transmission and drive train, and deliver "turnkey” vehicle to purchaser’s specification.

Purchase Price

The purchaser will pay the sum of______________________ for goods and payable as follows.

Warrantees

8. The seller warrants that the goods will be fit for the purchase such goods are originally intended.



All payments were made, except to for the roller, to the dealer “seller”.

Given what I have read here it is required by Federal law and DOT regulations that there be a clear separation between the manufacturer of the roller, dealer, and installer.

If that is the case, then it would seem to me that the dealer “seller” is in violation of such federal regulation because he clearly was the dealer and installer that contracted to provide a turnkey product to me.

It would seem that he may also be an agent and/or representative of the manufacturer who if true would put them as well in violation of the law.

If I have my facts correct it might provide me a little additional leverage in having my Shelby Cobra put in proper working condition.

Below you will find my original post. Thanks for all the advice and suggestions that everyone has made.

I really appreciate it. For your information, I have submitted numerous invoices, to the dealer, that represent the cost associated with making the current repairs to the automobile but as of yet have not received any response. I plan on also submitting the same invoices to the manufacturer of the roller since I believe they contractually are all working together








__________________________________________________ ________________

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

An excellent question and yes one would expect that if you bought a new Cobra from a dealer you would have fewer problems. The following are issues that I faced upon delivery, from an authorized Shelby dealer, after a very long wait on baby for a CSX car.

Upon arrival, the following issues existed.

1. Speedometer was registering 20 miles off because of wrong gear in transmission.
2. Tachometer wasn’t working because dip switches had not been properly set.
3. Carburetors were blowing raw fuel on to the engine, floats were set to high.
4. Brakes were only working at around 50% had to flush and adjust.
5. Left wheel bearing had to be adjusted.
6. Radiator expansion tank was leaking antifreeze into the engine compartment, had to be replaced.
7. All four wheels were out of alignment and had to be realigned.

After 200 miles, I experience the following additional issues.

1.T-bar reverse lockout on the shifter broke.

2.Remote starter solenoid failed and had to be replaced.

3.Exhaust system improperly installed and was generating excess heat in the cockpit area; muffler after 100 miles was beginning to burn the drivers and passenger side foot pan out. Exhaust system re-engineered and interior as well as exterior heat reflected material installed.

After 300 miles, the following additional issues came up.

1. Transmission will not shift into third or fourth gear; this issue will have to be addressed when we receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

2. Parking Brake does not fully disengage rear wheels this issue will have to be addressed when receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

Other than that it’s a great automobile that I look forward to, after fully shorting out, one day, enjoying the car.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

... it might provide me a little additional leverage in having my Shelby Cobra put in proper working condition.

Probably not. If they did stumble over some sort of state or federal reg somewhere, which is doubtful, it's unlikely that stumble would inure to your benefit. Rather, it just means some agency staff person somewhere could start bugging them with some paperwork -- that's a pretty dull saber. Personally, I wouldn't rattle a saber unless it's razor sharp.

[Mark IV]

The dealer is NOT an agent for Shelby American. A dealer agreement (sometimes a "franchise") states that the dealer is a separate entity from the manufacturer and is prohibited from binding or otherwise commiting the manufacturer.

I have written dealer agreements for two small volume manufacturers, they were not "franchises" as most states have a very involved and legally expensive process for registering a franchise (check out a McDonald's franchise agreement or a Ford dealer agreement sometime if you want complex) so I suspect it is either a "dealer agreement" or possibly a "personal services agreement" (which is what Mercedes uses in the US). Either way the dealer cannot bind or commit the manufacturer and is limited to what the mfr represents such as warranty, etc.

As to the legalities, several here feel the difference between the "dealer" doing a completion and the "manufacturer" doing the turn key allows the dealer to do so. I propose: What if the dealer bought every individual part to build the complete vehicle, that is he assembled it from 1000 pieces. Would this make him a "manufacturer? Now suppose he does it using an assembled rolling chassis and only two other "parts", the engine and transmission. Is he a "manufacturer" now? Is there any difference? NHTSA thinks not...............

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

The dealer is NOT an agent for Shelby American. A dealer agreement (sometimes a "franchise") states that the dealer is a separate entity from the manufacturer and is prohibited from binding or otherwise commiting the manufacturer.

I have written dealer agreements for two small volume manufacturers, they were not "franchises" as most states have a very involved and legally expensive process for registering a franchise (check out a McDonald's franchise agreement or a Ford dealer agreement sometime if you want complex) so I suspect it is either a "dealer agreement" or possibly a "personal services agreement" (which is what Mercedes uses in the US). Either way the dealer cannot bind or commit the manufacturer and is limited to what the mfr represents such as warranty, etc.

As to the legalities, several here feel the difference between the "dealer" doing a completion and the "manufacturer" doing the turn key allows the dealer to do so. I propose: What if the dealer bought every individual part to build the complete vehicle, that is he assembled it from 1000 pieces. Would this make him a "manufacturer? Now suppose he does it using an assembled rolling chassis and only two other "parts", the engine and transmission. Is he a "manufacturer" now? Is there any difference? NHTSA thinks not...............

However, there's been cases where, the Manufacture has required the Dealer to institute policies, procedures or acts of omission (which were not in the dealer agreements) that were found to be improper or illegal. Such as requiring it's dealer not to pay for overtime worked. Under those circumstances, the manufacture was held liable along with the dealer.

Another set of circumstances, most probably in this case, is where the manufacturer knew of procedures or acts of omission that were either being or not being performed by its dealer, and the manufacturer did not take steps to prevent it from happening. I believe under those circumstances the manufacture would have as much liability as the dealer.

This is sometimes called collusion or working together to get the deal done.

Neither a franchise agreement or corporation ora dealer agreement would protect you from these types of actions.

In other words, let's say GM Motor Company was aware that one of its dealers was improperly modifying the braking system on an new automobile and took no actions to keep that from happening, and it resulted in the death or injury of a person, then GM would have as much liability as a dealer.

[MRGEORGE077]

I have submitted my invoices dealing with these issues to the dealer and expect him to reimburse me for the current expenses as well as any additional expenses, i.e. transmission failue, in the future. As of this date he has not responded.

If by the end of the week if I have not received his response I will submit a request to Shelby American and ask that they either reimburse me or let me transport the automobile to another Shelby American authorized dealer who would address these problems in his shop. As a last alternative give me my money back.

If unsuccessful the last step would be to lawyer up in a very public way. At the end of the day I believe any mechanical issue can be rectified given enough money and time.

The only suggestion that I could give someone who is going to contract with a company to build them a Cobra would be to contractually hold back 10% that would be used to sort out these sorts of issues for the first 1,000 mile or so. I knew to do this but given the reputation of the company I let it slip, so shame on me.

[mln385]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

I have submitted my invoices dealing with these issues to the dealer and expect him to reimburse me for the current expenses as well as any additional expenses, i.e. transmission failue, in the future. As of this date he has not responded.

If by the end of the week if I have not received his response I will submit a request to Shelby American and ask that they either reimburse me or let me transport the automobile to another Shelby American authorized dealer who would address these problems in his shop. As a last alternative give me my money back.

If unsuccessful the last step would be to lawyer up in a very public way. At the end of the day I believe any mechanical issue can be rectified given enough money and time.

The only suggestion that I could give someone who is going to contract with a company to build them a Cobra would be to contractually hold back 10% that would be used to sort out these sorts of issues for the first 1,000 mile or so. I knew to do this but given the reputation of the company I let it slip, so shame on me.

Agreed ....it is time for the consumers of this hobby to demand the quality and expertise they pay for.

I would also recomend consumers take the time to ask the qualifications of the shop, whom is performing the installs and what acreditations if any do they have (ASE etc.)

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

The only suggestion that I could give someone who is going to contract with a company to build them a Cobra would be to contractually hold back 10% that would be used to sort out these sorts of issues for the first 1,000 mile or so. I knew to do this but given the reputation of the company I let it slip, so shame on me.

Funny you should say that. I did just that, but not on purpose. ERA shipped me my car so that I could have it before Christmas, but Peter didn't get around to figuring out what I owed him on it until after they all came back from vacation, in January or so.... It was one of those "trust things," and that's best when it's a two way street.

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Funny you should say that. I did just that, but not on purpose. ERA shipped me my car so that I could have it before Christmas, but Peter didn't get around to figuring out what I owed him on it until after they all came back from vacation, in January or so.... It was one of those "trust things," and that's best when it's a two way street.

You are correct Peter is a good guy, someone you can trust.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

The only suggestion that I could give someone who is going to contract with a company to build them a Cobra would be to contractually hold back 10% that would be used to sort out these sorts of issues for the first 1,000 mile or so. I knew to do this but given the reputation of the company I let it slip, so shame on me.

No shame on you. Reputation and recommendations are what most folks rely on. A "retention" of funds sounds great in theory, but most shops take these projects on a time and material basis and only give the owner a "good faith" estimate.

I also know about the principle of "retention", but I also took my car to a shop based on reputation and personal recommendations and was completely satisfied. The shop I took my Cobra to, once finished with the install, kept my car for an extra week or two, doing a shakedown and fixing anything that was necessary. IIRC, they put a 100-200 miles on the car to make sure my car was delivered with no issues.

In the end, I had two issues. I had to replace a defective tach and there was some sort of an electrical issue with the wiring harness, which turned out to be an issue with all harnesses made during a specific time period.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

No shame on you.

He's mad. Kirkham and ERA do things differently than CSX cars -- you really can't compare the three when it comes to this wicket that he's stuck in.

[MRGEORGE077]

[quote=patrickt;1206141]He's mad. Kirkham and ERA do things differently than CSX cars -- you really can't compare the three when it comes to this wicket that he's stuck in.[/QUOT

You are 100% correct, and hindsight is wonderful but you can't undo spilled milk just wipe it up , move on and hope others don't make the same mistake.

[Cashburn]

Has your "dealer" offered to collect the car and address the issues? At the very least that is the first step in the process.