"Sorting out" Issues... - Page 4

Cashburn · #1 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Family members, parent and subsidiary companies, and others with potential conflicts of interest, can still create arm’s-length transactions. However, these types of parties need to show that the transaction was conducted the same as it would have been with a stranger. One way to do this is to hire an independent appraiser or business valuator to value the transaction, and then use the value created by the appraiser or business valuator.

Customer and market clearly establishes this value. Yeah, I've got plenty of money in lawyers... Besides an arms length transaction would be an issue between family members. So it's really a Mucky interpretation of an unrelated term.

OP is Steve and we are in contact on all items. I believe he just wanted to get a feel for how many items can present themselves on these cars.

patrickt · #2 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cashburn

OP is Steve and we are in contact on all items. I believe he just wanted to get a feel for how many items can present themselves on these cars.

Right, but the thread quickly became that of MrGeorge's (that's what happens when you only post once in your own thread). And, btw, if any of you all are hiring lawyers to help you with a state regulatory matter, here's a tip: If your lawyer is not on a first name basis with the regulatory staff, you've hired the wrong lawyer.

RodKnock · #3 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 03:26 PM

Please see below.

From the CA DMV website. My understanding is/was manufacturer sold directly to the buyer. Not a dealer to buyer transaction, assuming the dealership isn't owned by the manufacturer, of course.

'A "home-made, specially constructed, or kit vehicle" is a vehicle that is built for private use, not for resale, and is not constructed by a licensed manufacturer or remanufacturer. These vehicles may be built from a kit, new or used parts, a combination of new and used parts, or a vehicle reported for dismantling (junked) that, when reconstructed, does not resemble the original make of the vehicle that was dismantled.'

BTW, I'm not aware of any certifications required by the EPA or NHTSA for our cars.

Mark IV · #4 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

BTW, I'm not aware of any certifications required by the EPA or NHTSA for our cars.

Correct. Because they are NOT "vehicles" however if sold completed they are. The sale is "into the first and normal commerce" so resale of a registered car is OK.

The definition is the key. Once it becomes a "vehicle" the seller must become a registered manufacturer and meet all standards unless the completion is by the chassis purchaser or party OTHER than the seller.

If you or another party (read "dealer") choose to accept a different interpertation, that is your right. My concern is that a buyer or potential buyer understands the risks in a "turn-key, one stop" purchase. It really sucks to go to the DMV and be turned down!

Cashburn · #5 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 04:02 PM

Well Mr. Muck it sounds like your associates in TX and at Gear 6 (Superformance Award of Excellence) have a different interpretation. So it's understandable.

Mark IV · #6 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cashburn

Well Mr. Muck it sounds like your associates in TX and at Gear 6 (Superformance Award of Excellence) have a different interpretation. So it's understandable.

Yes, it does appear so. As I said, I am relating my understanding of the regulations. Others may differ. Your mileage may vary.........

Go with what works for you.

Cashburn · #7 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Yes, it does appear so. As I said, I am relating my understanding of the regulations. Others may differ. Your mileage may vary.........

Go with what works for you.

Looks like Olthoff also handles biz arms length: Auto Huas Classics in Yorktown, VA

Maybe you're unique, nothing wrong with that.

Mark IV · #8 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cashburn

Looks like Olthoff also handles biz arms length: Auto Huas Classics in Yorktown, VA

Maybe you're unique, nothing wrong with that.

Jay, when I was little my mommy told me that I was "unique" but the other kids didn't believe it.

Don't base your understanding upon what is posted in a CC thread. Dennis at Olthoff Racing does indeed do installs, he has done some for my customers. However Dennis is not now a Superformance dealer, he has given up the dealership portion to do installs and to operate as the DeFacto technical advisor for SPF. Olthoff was one of the early SPF dealers and has a great reputation amoungst their customers that is hard earned but Dennis also agrees that he cannot sell and install.

I can't speak for Auto Haus or any of the other Superformance dealerships although I know the way several handle the sale and they don't install. As I stated some may read the regulations differently as apparently you and your brother do. Again offering a turn key done by two unrelated entities is legal under the letter of the law so Auto Haus selling a turn key with the install done by Olthoff is legal.

Cashburn · #9 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 08:04 PM

After all that you finally got to it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Don't base your understanding upon what is posted in a CC thread.

That sums up your understanding of my business, as it does my understanding of yours.

RodKnock · #10 (**permalink**) 08-24-2012, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark IV

However Dennis is not now a Superformance dealer, he has given up the dealership portion to do installs and to operate as the DeFacto technical advisor for SPF. Olthoff was one of the early SPF dealers and has a great reputation amoungst their customers that is hard earned but Dennis also agrees that he cannot sell and install.

Again offering a turn key done by two unrelated entities is legal under the letter of the law so Auto Haus selling a turn key with the install done by Olthoff is legal.

Maybe this is just a Superformance problem, if it's a problem at all.

Superformance is a manufacturer. Olthoff was a dealer and did installs too. Now he doesn't. I wish I knew the true reason for this, but I'm likely to never know. There are dealers that do installs under their own dealer's name.

Patrick, I know you can setup a legal trail to make an installer an unrelated entity to a dealer or manufacturer, but I still know of no law that says a dealer, unrelated to a manufacturer, cannot do the installs under the dealer's name.

RodKnock · #11 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 04:46 PM

BTW, Patrick knows everything. Maybe he could chime in and give us his thoughts. I'm surprised he hasn't since he gives his thoughts on virtually everything else here on CC.

patrickt · #12 (**permalink**) 08-23-2012, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RodKnock

BTW, Patrick knows everything. Maybe he could chime in and give us his thoughts. I'm surprised he hasn't since he gives his thoughts on virtually everything else here on CC.

In regulated industries, the use of "related entities" to do what the parent is prohibited from doing is done all the time. Yes you need to dot some I's and cross some T's, but it is so common-place that in a lot of environments the first question, when a good deal is put in front of them, is "great, now which one of our companies can do that." MarkIV is simply not comfortable dancing down the road, and there's nothing wrong with that. I have little doubt that if he contacted any of the NY regulatory firms and asked them "Would you please help me sketch out a way that I can provide this service to willing buyers so that I will not expose myself to significant liability either at the state or federal level" that they would help him do it and give him a formal opinion, that if he does what they outline, he will not be in violation of state or federal law. That stack of paper will not be cheap though. Depending on the firm it could run as much as an SPF.

Dimis · #13 (**permalink**) 08-24-2012, 05:30 AM

Yikes... Talk aboot thread drift.

I truly admire Mark IV for sticking to his principles on this one.
Weather legal or illegal, right or wrong, self-righteous or otherwise, I tip my hat to him for choosing to steer clear of what he may view as a "dishonest practice" for the sake of a few extra bucks.

The lawyers will disagree with me on this one, but: "Just because you can, does mean you should!".

jhv48 · #14 (**permalink**) 08-24-2012, 05:54 AM

Wasn't there a thread a while back about a guy in California trying to register a newly completed cobra he bought from out of state and was denied registration by the state because there was a perceived relationship between the dealer and installer even though they were seperate operations? I believe the registration was denied because the installer derived most of its income from this one dealer thus appearing to be an extension of the dealer, thus appearing to be a turnkey vehicle. Not sure how this was resolved.
Or I may be completely wrong.

bingo2 · #15 (**permalink**) 08-24-2012, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhv48

Wasn't there a thread a while back about a guy in California trying to register a newly completed cobra he bought from out of state and was denied registration by the state because there was a perceived relationship between the dealer and installer even though they were seperate operations? I believe the registration was denied because the installer derived most of its income from this one dealer thus appearing to be an extension of the dealer, thus appearing to be a turnkey vehicle. Not sure how this was resolved.
Or I may be completely wrong.

I'm curious about this as well! That thread disappeared very quickly.

RodKnock · #16 (**permalink**) 08-24-2012, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dimis

I truly admire Mark IV for sticking to his principles on this one. Weather legal or illegal, right or wrong, self-righteous or otherwise, I tip my hat to him for choosing to steer clear of what he may view as a "dishonest practice" for the sake of a few extra bucks.

The lawyers will disagree with me on this one, but: "Just because you can, does mean you should!".

A. There's nothing wrong with making money. Dealers or installers. You, me or anyone.

B. There's nothing inherently dishonest about a dealer installing and engine and tranny in a component car he or she just sold. There are countless instances of installers being dishonest, just from threads on this forum alone.

It's only a "dishonest practice" if someone commits an illegal, immoral and/or unethical act.