"Sorting out" Issues...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

And that is still not legal. It is called an "arms length transaction" and does not pass what they call the "sniff test." Do some legal research on "related parties" and "arms length", perhaps one of our resident attorneys would like to comment.

What is not legal? Where is there a Federal law that states a manufacturer or dealer cannot perform the engine and tranny install whether using the dealer or an affiliated company? In CA, you cannot be both the dealer and installer for SPCNS vehicles, because of registration issues, but I have no clue if that's true in all 50 states.

That's like saying that Milgard Windows, who's a manufacturer of windows, cannot install their own windows, or cannot setup an affiliated company to install their windows.

Also, I'm not sure you know what the terms "arms length transaction" or "related parties" mean. You should look them up. Typically, they relate to a transaction between buyer and seller. In this case, the CSX dealer is a seller, the installer is also a seller and the buyer is "George."

There's nothing nefarious about the transaction, unless the dealer doesn't fully disclose to the buyer, "George," that the installer is in fact an related party to the transaction. If that indeed is/are the facts of George's situation.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

What is not legal? Where is there a Federal law that states a manufacturer or dealer cannot perform the engine and tranny install whether using the dealer or an affiliated company? In CA, you cannot be both the dealer and installer for SPCNS vehicles, because of registration issues, but I have no clue if that's true in all 50 states.

That's like saying that Milgard Windows, who's a manufacturer of windows, cannot install their own windows, or cannot setup an affiliated company to install their windows.

Also, I'm not sure you know what the terms "arms length transaction" or "related parties" mean. You should look them up. Typically, they relate to a transaction between buyer and seller. In this case, the CSX dealer is a seller, the installer is also a seller and the buyer is "George."

There's nothing nefarious about the transaction, unless the dealer doesn't fully disclose to the buyer, "George," that the installer is in fact an related party to the transaction. If that indeed is/are the facts of George's situation.

I am not aware of a large Federal reulations agency or rules pertaining to window manufacturers and installers. There is for automobiles, it is called NHTSA. And some small agency called "EPA"

While I am not an attorney and I may not have used the correct legal terminology, it is what I have heard used by people who are lawyers and understand the issues we are discussing. And that issue is a dealer selling the chassis and also selling/installing the powertrain. I have personally been involved in certifing an automobile with both the EPA and NHTSA. I have dealt with people at both and may still know some who work there.

The reason many cars are sold as "Turn Key Minus", that is less engine and transmission, is to avoid the federal definaition of a "vehicle." Let's use Superformance as I am familiar with this on a first hand basis and speak from actual experience. The chassis is imported as an automotive chassis "component" (thus often called "Component Automobiles") and has a defined U.S Customs I.D code (and they do NOT come in as "washing machine parts" as was the urban myth at one point) and are dutied as such. As a "component" the chassis is required to meet DOT standards such as brake hose construction, etc. IF this were a complete, running car it would be subject to all NHTSA and EPA regulations or require a bond to be posted requiring it to be upgraded to meet such standards or be re-exported at the end of such bond.

Now, if a dealer completes a "component chassis" it is no longer a "component" but rather a "vehicle" and thus subject to all of the aforementioned standards. The "loophole" is that an individual may complete the "component" for his personal use, not for resale. Thus Joe Bubba can install the powertrain or hire an unrelated third party to do so. It is still a "component vehicle" in the eyes of the Federal authorities. When it is done by a dealer who also sold the chassis, he has produced a "vehicle" and such vehicle is liable to all published standards. This is why many component chassis dealers are not required to be registered with the state DMV as a "dealer" as they do not sell "vehicles" any more than a NAPA store must be a registered dealer...they sell parts and a component chassis is a "part" or rather a collection of parts that constitute a "chassis."

Now I have seen several dealers who do not adhere to this concept either thay feel the can "fly under the radar" or they may have a different interpertation from their legal advisor. I will not be turning them in and it isn't my business to do so. I operate by my understanding of the law and they apparently do so under their understanding.

I have seen postings that California has denied registrations to some buyers who had a "Turn Key" car built, but to date I am not aware of any other states that have caught on to this.

I stand by my statement that the Federal regulations preclude a single source for a "turn key" car.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

I am not aware of a large Federal reulations agency or rules pertaining to window manufacturers and installers.

BTW, sorry about this analogy. New windows and new cars are two entirely different animals.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Now, if a dealer completes a "component chassis" it is no longer a "component" but rather a "vehicle" and thus subject to all of the aforementioned standards.

Originally Posted by Mark IV

I stand by my statement that the Federal regulations preclude a single source for a "turn key" car.

I know what point you're trying to make, but it isn't a consistent one. There are several possible parties to a transaction to sell a Cobra: Manufacturer, Dealer, Seller and Buyer.

The Kirkham's cannot legally sell me a turn-key car because they're the Manufacturer/Seller and I'm the Buyer. There are no intermediaries (i.e., Dealer), thus they cannot complete a Kirkham or they would violate Federal law.

OTH, you're a dealer, an intermediary, not a manufacturer, and I'll assume you are not a related entity to SPF in any way. You have an agreement to sell SPF's as Vintage Motorsports has agreement to sell BDR's.

Have you been advised by SPF or your own lawyer(s) that your independent SPF dealership cannot by Federal law finish a SPF Cobra for a customer?

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Have you been advised by SPF or your own lawyer(s) that your independent SPF dealership cannot by Federal law finish a SPF Cobra for a customer?

In a word, yes. Once I supply the chassis AND powertrain or marry them, I am a "Manufacturer" in the eyes of NHTSA and EPA. It is a fine distinction but that is the interpertation I am going with. Again, others may see it differently and bless 'em if they do.