"Sorting out" Issues...

[MRGEORGE077]

After reading the opinions and remarks concerning one of my original posts, which you’ll find at the bottom of this communication, I have come to the following conclusion based upon the contract that I had with the dealer “seller “of my CSX 8000 car.

The contract that I had with a Shelby American authorized dealer specified the following:

Sales Agreement

Between Name of Dealer

And

Purchaser My Name

In consideration of the covenants and agreements contained in this sales agreement, the parties to this agreement agree as follows:

Sales of Goods

The seller will sell, transfer and deliver to the purchaser on before___________________ the following goods (“goods”):

CSX xxxx Shelby Cobra chassis unit with fiberglass body and component roller, Engine for CSX xxxx, 1965 289 Hi Pro motor, Runner kit for CSX car xxxx and all labor to assemble parts, install engine, transmission and drive train, and deliver "turnkey” vehicle to purchaser’s specification.

Purchase Price

The purchaser will pay the sum of______________________ for goods and payable as follows.

Warrantees

8. The seller warrants that the goods will be fit for the purchase such goods are originally intended.



All payments were made, except to for the roller, to the dealer “seller”.

Given what I have read here it is required by Federal law and DOT regulations that there be a clear separation between the manufacturer of the roller, dealer, and installer.

If that is the case, then it would seem to me that the dealer “seller” is in violation of such federal regulation because he clearly was the dealer and installer that contracted to provide a turnkey product to me.

It would seem that he may also be an agent and/or representative of the manufacturer who if true would put them as well in violation of the law.

If I have my facts correct it might provide me a little additional leverage in having my Shelby Cobra put in proper working condition.

Below you will find my original post. Thanks for all the advice and suggestions that everyone has made.

I really appreciate it. For your information, I have submitted numerous invoices, to the dealer, that represent the cost associated with making the current repairs to the automobile but as of yet have not received any response. I plan on also submitting the same invoices to the manufacturer of the roller since I believe they contractually are all working together








__________________________________________________ ________________

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

An excellent question and yes one would expect that if you bought a new Cobra from a dealer you would have fewer problems. The following are issues that I faced upon delivery, from an authorized Shelby dealer, after a very long wait on baby for a CSX car.

Upon arrival, the following issues existed.

1. Speedometer was registering 20 miles off because of wrong gear in transmission.
2. Tachometer wasn’t working because dip switches had not been properly set.
3. Carburetors were blowing raw fuel on to the engine, floats were set to high.
4. Brakes were only working at around 50% had to flush and adjust.
5. Left wheel bearing had to be adjusted.
6. Radiator expansion tank was leaking antifreeze into the engine compartment, had to be replaced.
7. All four wheels were out of alignment and had to be realigned.

After 200 miles, I experience the following additional issues.

1.T-bar reverse lockout on the shifter broke.

2.Remote starter solenoid failed and had to be replaced.

3.Exhaust system improperly installed and was generating excess heat in the cockpit area; muffler after 100 miles was beginning to burn the drivers and passenger side foot pan out. Exhaust system re-engineered and interior as well as exterior heat reflected material installed.

After 300 miles, the following additional issues came up.

1. Transmission will not shift into third or fourth gear; this issue will have to be addressed when we receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

2. Parking Brake does not fully disengage rear wheels this issue will have to be addressed when receive the car back from the upholstery shop.

Other than that it’s a great automobile that I look forward to, after fully shorting out, one day, enjoying the car.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

... it might provide me a little additional leverage in having my Shelby Cobra put in proper working condition.

Probably not. If they did stumble over some sort of state or federal reg somewhere, which is doubtful, it's unlikely that stumble would inure to your benefit. Rather, it just means some agency staff person somewhere could start bugging them with some paperwork -- that's a pretty dull saber. Personally, I wouldn't rattle a saber unless it's razor sharp.

[Mark IV]

The dealer is NOT an agent for Shelby American. A dealer agreement (sometimes a "franchise") states that the dealer is a separate entity from the manufacturer and is prohibited from binding or otherwise commiting the manufacturer.

I have written dealer agreements for two small volume manufacturers, they were not "franchises" as most states have a very involved and legally expensive process for registering a franchise (check out a McDonald's franchise agreement or a Ford dealer agreement sometime if you want complex) so I suspect it is either a "dealer agreement" or possibly a "personal services agreement" (which is what Mercedes uses in the US). Either way the dealer cannot bind or commit the manufacturer and is limited to what the mfr represents such as warranty, etc.

As to the legalities, several here feel the difference between the "dealer" doing a completion and the "manufacturer" doing the turn key allows the dealer to do so. I propose: What if the dealer bought every individual part to build the complete vehicle, that is he assembled it from 1000 pieces. Would this make him a "manufacturer? Now suppose he does it using an assembled rolling chassis and only two other "parts", the engine and transmission. Is he a "manufacturer" now? Is there any difference? NHTSA thinks not...............

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

The dealer is NOT an agent for Shelby American. A dealer agreement (sometimes a "franchise") states that the dealer is a separate entity from the manufacturer and is prohibited from binding or otherwise commiting the manufacturer.

I have written dealer agreements for two small volume manufacturers, they were not "franchises" as most states have a very involved and legally expensive process for registering a franchise (check out a McDonald's franchise agreement or a Ford dealer agreement sometime if you want complex) so I suspect it is either a "dealer agreement" or possibly a "personal services agreement" (which is what Mercedes uses in the US). Either way the dealer cannot bind or commit the manufacturer and is limited to what the mfr represents such as warranty, etc.

As to the legalities, several here feel the difference between the "dealer" doing a completion and the "manufacturer" doing the turn key allows the dealer to do so. I propose: What if the dealer bought every individual part to build the complete vehicle, that is he assembled it from 1000 pieces. Would this make him a "manufacturer? Now suppose he does it using an assembled rolling chassis and only two other "parts", the engine and transmission. Is he a "manufacturer" now? Is there any difference? NHTSA thinks not...............

However, there's been cases where, the Manufacture has required the Dealer to institute policies, procedures or acts of omission (which were not in the dealer agreements) that were found to be improper or illegal. Such as requiring it's dealer not to pay for overtime worked. Under those circumstances, the manufacture was held liable along with the dealer.

Another set of circumstances, most probably in this case, is where the manufacturer knew of procedures or acts of omission that were either being or not being performed by its dealer, and the manufacturer did not take steps to prevent it from happening. I believe under those circumstances the manufacture would have as much liability as the dealer.

This is sometimes called collusion or working together to get the deal done.

Neither a franchise agreement or corporation ora dealer agreement would protect you from these types of actions.

In other words, let's say GM Motor Company was aware that one of its dealers was improperly modifying the braking system on an new automobile and took no actions to keep that from happening, and it resulted in the death or injury of a person, then GM would have as much liability as a dealer.

[itstock]

However frustrating my car has been with 500 miles (it's actually 457 over a 5 month period), my issues don't seem ANYWHERE as bad as the above items. I will reiterate again later, but VMS has either taken care of the issues, or is actively working to take care of the issues. It's not for lack of trying. IMO, the PA to CT distance is at fault for these items not being taken care of. Had I been able to, or if I did deliver it myself, I firmly believe that VMS would have taken care of the issues without hesitation. In the mean time, I am just hoping (and crossing my fingers) that they are in the area soon so that they can personally address everything.

There are three issues that I'm currently having (only two of which are bothersome). Some of you will probably even laugh at my measly little problems.

The first is that the brake cylinder to reservoir is leaking, enough to drip out of the side vent of the car and all over the side of the car. It's not enough to significantly decrease the brake fluid level though. But I'm not fond of the idea of continuing to drive a car that has known leaks, nor am I comfortable knowing that there is a problem with the brake system. It's a BDR warranty issue, faulty part, whatever you call it.

The second issue is easily avoidable, but still not right. The gas leaks through the sending unit if "overfilled". It has only happened once, when I obviously wasn't careful enough to stop putting fuel in the tank when I watched it starting to slow on the fill. I came home directly after fill up, and checked a bit later to find a puddle of fuel in the garage. Although worrisome, it's probably the least of my worries as it's so easy to avoid. I believe this to be a BDR warranty issue.

The other issue, which is more of a serious disappointment, is that the car can't go WOT. Or even half throttle. Or anywhere close really after very short periods. The pedal assembly throttle stop literally bends with pinky pressure. When I say the car can't go WOT, I really mean that the car can barely go off idle. Fine, some people drive these cars where that is all they want to do. That's not the car that I bought though, and I'd like to have the option to actually be able to pass people. It's quite clearly a BDR manufacturing issue (and NOT a VMS "tuning" issue as I had originally thought and wrongly placed blame).

My other issues have been taken care of, including a paid warranty claim through VMS where I had a local shop do work. There was no problem with the claim, and VMS did everything they could (including over the net diagnosis), as fast as they possibly could (the shop, where I have taken my daily drivers for years, is a different story).

Now that the three new issues are BDR issues, I suppose that I will either wait it out until VMS is in the area and can take the car back (they have communicated quite clearly with the throttle issue, and we ARE working on a solution, though I don't believe I will be able to fix this one), or find a local place that I can trust to work on these cars.

Either way, my car has sat for the past 2 weeks, and it will continue to sit because of these minor, yet very annoying issues.

I will say that Jay at VMS has responded promptly, at all hours, for any and all of my issues. Hopefully once these items are addressed, I'll be able to drive/enjoy the car without any other significant items popping up. But it is quite bothersome that I genuinely want to rack up miles on the car, yet I can't. So this thread was made out of frustration and to find out what other issues I can "look forward to". With as few posts that were made stating their issues in comparison to views/members/owners here, I don't think that I'm asking too much.

Lastly, I understand that these cars are what they are. If I were racing the car I'd completely understand extensive maintenance. It's also a harsher than average ride, so more nuts/bolts are vibrated and jolted loose. They are powerful cars that break parts, and find weak links. I accept that. I just wish that my problems were a result of those conditions.

Steve

[Mark IV]

I am confident that Jay will handle or arrange to handle the warranty issues. BDR and SPF are good about handling issues related to the chassis.

We (SPF) actually don't have many chassis warranty issues and have cars that that are on the road that have never had a claim filed, and most are small items, but no less important than a major problem in the eyes of the owner.

If you have a problem let your dealer know and give them the chance to repair/resolve the issue in a reasonable time frame. Now, if you don't get resolution or a positive outcome, that is the time to contact the distributor and relate the story.

As many of our customers are not local we often must work with a third party repair facility as it is more expediant/cost effective to shipping a car multiple hundreds of miles. This is where a referral of a good shop is very valuable.

[Mark IV]

Could it be that certain dealers are now creating new business entities to attempt to put some additional diatance between the "seller" and the "installer"?

Gee, if what they do now is "legal" why would you go to the trouble and expense of another corporation?

A little Googling of the corporate filings will reveal the story.

Again, do your due diligence if buying a "turn-key" from anyone. The law says "built for resale" so even Joe Bubba the builder is a "manufacturer" if he built it not for himself or not as a contracted labor supplier but if he supplied the kit and powertrain for sale to an end user.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Could it be that certain dealers are now creating new business entities to attempt to put some additional diatance between the "seller" and the "installer"?

Gee, if what they do now is "legal" why would you go to the trouble and expense of another corporation?

A little Googling of the corporate filings will reveal the story.

Again, do your due diligence if buying a "turn-key" from anyone. The law says "built for resale" so even Joe Bubba the builder is a "manufacturer" if he built it not for himself or not as a contracted labor supplier but if he supplied the kit and powertrain for sale to an end user.

Some actually have legitimate business reasons and for you to cast a wide net and insinuate that they're all crooks is just wrong. There are business partnership and insurance reasons just to name a couple. Try and see the good in people because the unkind will not be "rewarded."

[YerDugliness]

I could see a less than "attenuated" relationship between a dealer and the installer if they were both legal corporations...even if the two corporations were run by brothers and shared the same space. The legal corporations would be the entities who were providing the roller and the drivetrain, and even if they shared the same physical space as long as neither of the two brothers have and ownership stake in both corporations in any way that would be enough "distance" for me if I were on a jury.

Now, if one person owned or even had an ownership stake in both corporations, I would look at that differently....

The bottom line is "follow the money"....if either brother benefitted financially from the other brother's business, that would be reason to suspect malfeasance.

Cheers!

Dugly

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Some actually have legitimate business reasons and for you to cast a wide net and insinuate that they're all crooks is just wrong. There are business partnership and insurance reasons just to name a couple. Try and see the good in people because the unkind will not be "rewarded."

There is NO intention to brand anyone as "crooks" and my post was not aimed at ANY dealer. It WAS aimed at buyers so that they will go in with eyes open and be comfortable with the relationship with their dealer of choice. In the end, it up to the buyer to decide if the business model of the dealer they choose is a "fit" for them and their purchase. My point was that some people are changing corporate entity forms to possibly avoid the issues I raised previously, not to label anyone a crook.

Some buyers will see my "manufacturer" point and some won't. Their money and their choice. The issue is to be aware of the options and issues and make an informed choice whatever that choice my be.

Again, sorry if anyone read more into the post than was intended. I am not aware of any dealer posting here that is a bad actor......all I am aware of are giving good customer service to my knowledge.

[brettco]

I've been sorting my car out for 13 years. Some parts have worn out before being sorted out. If you don't want (sorting a cars problems out) as a longterm hobby this may not be the car for you. When I see people asking about heaters for a Cobra I wonder how their car can be so different from mine. It's HOT.

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by Tommy

Steve,
In the big time auto industry, auto repairs on new cars are tracked by model and plotted on a graph with the number of repair on the vertical axis and miles plotted on the horizontal axis starting at zero. Over time this graph has come to be known as the bathtub curve:


The shape of the curve has improved over the years as manufacturers have gotten better at making problem free cars that last longer. But I doubt that applies to small scale manufacturers of specialty cars equipped with aftermarket drive trains. .... My point is that with cars like Cobra replicas, there is no typical sorting out period. These are not daily drivers like Hondas and Chevrolets. These are replicas of race cars that were sold as street cars only to meet the requirements of their racing classes. For many of us, sorting them out is a never ending process.

how many years is the burn in period?
CSX 8050

[MRGEORGE077]

Originally Posted by mln385

Shouldn't ones expectations be higher with a turnkey car from an assembled Manufacturer such as BDR or Superformance etc. After all isn't that part of the sales pitch on these types?

The OP has a newer BDR so one would suspect the car should be fairly well built no?

Amen, brother let's add Shelby American and their dealers/turn key/ installer to your list.
CSX 8050

[Al G]

Originally Posted by MRGEORGE077

Amen, brother let's add Shelby American and their dealers/turn key/ installer to your list.
CSX 8050

Why don't you do a service to potential buyers as well as all the innocent dealers by naming who you are so unhappy with?

[Tutosnake]

Originally Posted by Al G

Why don't you do a service to potential buyers as well as all the innocent dealers by naming who you are so unhappy with?

I echo that. BTW I enjoy the same view as Mark IV. As a CSX buyer, all the research I did before ordering my car led me to believe that unless you legally created two or more completely distinct entities to handle the affair, the AD shall not finish the car. After all, in the SAI case, didn't it use be that way? Does anybody knows the facts about that? Why did SAI steered away from allowing the AD's to finish the cars they sold?

Anyways, I have had my car for 2.5 months now. It has 480 miles, and I had to fix a dead fuel gauge (sending unit replaced), and tighten oil lines (leaks). I used a local mechanic for those without problem. It also came with a busted wiper blade/arm, but who really cares about that! I will leave it the way it is... just re-adjust it before I go out on a ride so that people don't notice it.

Only one thing KILLS me: the car came with paint damage on the edge of the engine bay that SAI touched up very poorly. I admit it is in a relatively inconspicuous area but it drives me crazy every time I raise the hood. The car went directly from Las Vegas to Olthoff Racing, so you can imagine it would be almost impossible (not enough time and patience ) for me to make any claims...

I am happy with my car. I would do it all over again in the same fashion, hoping that whoever scratched the engine bay did not cross path with my car a second time

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tutosnake

... all the research I did before ordering my car led me to believe that unless you legally created two or more completely distinct entities to handle the affair...

Everything I've ever heard was that Louisiana's law is neither black nor white... it's green.

[Tutosnake]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Everything I've ever heard was that Louisiana's law is neither black nor white... it's green.

PATRICK!!! Been missing you, you omniscient one You are SOOOO correct. It is not Louisiana Law unless it is crooked. However, I had to go out of state to place an order, so I had to behave and abide by more reliable/solid rules:roll eyes:

[stephen_becker]

Let me see if I can add to the story here - First off MrGeorge077 in Texas is my customer (CSX 8050) he is a stand-up guy who has gone thru allot with his CSX car - He has the patience’s & understanding of a true enthusiast - This car (CSX 8050) was the first CSX 8000 built by Hi-Tech and had a ton of issues, most of what we worked on and worked out here at the dealership prior to his delivery. These issues should have been worked out by hi-Tech & SAI but………………. / I have asked George for & received the additional expense invoices that he incurred after delivery of the car and I have sent those to SAI for reimbursement - To date I have heard nothing back from SAI management and I continue to press SAI for financial assistance in making Mr. George happy & whole – Its called doing the right thing - part of my lawsuit against SAI has to do with the lack of support SAI gives me as a factory-authorized Shelby American Inc dealer so I know that this issue will be (eventually) addressed in the jury trial that starts on September 11, 2013 @ 8:30am in downtown Los Angeles.

As someone that has been involved in the Shelby hobby & industry since 1977 I can assure all parties interested that if SAI does not/will not reimburse Mr. George for his out-of-pocket expenses to correct build & warranty issues with his car, that I will.

[stephen_becker]

[quote=Tutosnake;1225943]I echo that. BTW I enjoy the same view as Mark IV. As a CSX buyer, all the research I did before ordering my car led me to believe that unless you legally created two or more completely distinct entities to handle the affair, the AD shall not finish the car. After all, in the SAI case, didn't it use be that way? Does anybody knows the facts about that? Why did SAI steered away from allowing the AD's to finish the cars they sold?

We were always advised by SAI (CSBI) legal to have a seperate selling ententy (component/roller car) and a seperate servicing/parts/ company.

I do not know the reason for this but we complied with their across the board demand (on all factory-authorized Shelby Cobra dealerships)

I did ask CS before he passed why SAI does not install the drive-trains and he gave me two answers

1) Feds will not allow that to happen as the car is considered a 1965 on the MSO

2) He did not want the liability of the install and what might go wrong in the hear-after with the car

I do not know if you all know but SAI puts a six month, six thounds mile warranty on the CSX cars BUT the warranty starts the day I pick the car up at the SAI factory NOT the day the customer receives the car!! That is a policy that has always irked me

[REAL 1]

I think it has to do with federal law and regs that if the car is built all in one location with drive train it will have to meet current DOT and NHSTA safety and emissions.

You didn't have theses issues in 1965.