Carroll Shelby

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by Dwight

my list of books about Shelby

Shelby Cobra Fifty Years by Colin Comer

The Complete Book Of Shelby Automobiles, Shelby Cobras, Mustangs, and Super Snakes by Colin Comer

Ford GT 40 & GT Ultimate Portfolio 1964-2006 complied by R M Clarke

Shelby GT 40 by Dave Friedman

Cobra The Shelby American Original Archives 1962-1965 by Dave Friedman

Shelby Racer For The Street Mustang by Randy Leffingwell

Shelby Cobra Gold Portfolio 1962-1969 complied by R M Clarke

Go Like Hell by A.J. B.A.IME

Shelby The Man. The Cars. The Legend by Wallace A. Wyss

World Registry Of Cobras & GT 40s 4TH Edition

As you read the stories about Shelby you look for the author that can separate the facts from legend. That's hard for the authors to do with Carroll Shelby's legend.

I enjoy all the stories! Fact or Legend.

Shelby was a super salesman! That's one of the qualities that made him great. He was who he was and because of that he became a legend. Not a perfect man but no one is.

Long live the Legend

Dwight

Thanks Dwight much apprciated list! All great sports figures seem to have a little legend seasoned in! ;-)

[Nedsel]

Let's be fair about the fact that many of the "427" Cobras came with the 428 cubic-inch engine: the promotional literature at the time was clear on this issue, and it is likely the local salesmen who were to blame when an owner claimed he didn't know he wasn't buying a car with a 427 in it. Even the shipping invoices noted "428 engine."

[Dangerous Doug]

Don't think the 427SO/428PI was due to smog changes. I think Shelby just couldn't procure enough 427SO's from Ford to meet demand. Manufacturing issues, if I recall correctly. Those in the know please step in if this is not correct.

My one interaction with Carroll Shelby was pleasant. I brought a Cobra book to Laguna Seca for signing, and stood near the end of the line as Shelby dutifully signed his names to scraps of paper in endless repetition. His assistant saw that I had actually brought a book for signing (and, more than likely was wearing a Cobra Hat) and cut the line off right behind me. Though exhausted, he graciously signed my book and was very appreciative to end with a fan.

Frankly, I get annoyed by the vilification of Mr. Shelby by those who have had no personal or business dealings with him. Read Rinsey Mill's biography and get a feel for the whole person. There are people that vilify him, and many, many more that personally knew the man and loved the guy.

I hope I'm measured the same grace when I've passed.
Cheers,
DD

[Nedsel]

Frankly, I get annoyed by the vilification of Mr. Shelby by those who have had no personal or business dealings with him. Read Rinsey Mill's biography and get a feel for the whole person. There are people that vilify him, and many, many more that personally knew the man and loved the guy.

I hope I'm measured the same grace when I've passed.
Cheers,
DD[/quote]

Well said, Doug.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

Also, read in a book about how the 1967 427 model was misrepresented to buyers (they used 428 lesser hp engines). Anyone know the story behind this?!? This is all new to me and isn't really portraying Shelby in the best light.

Originally Posted by saturnkk

I must say that is very disappointing to hear that a man with all of Shelby's abilities and driving/engineering prowess would resort to such tactics. Almost makes it seem like an unseemly used car salesman...

Originally Posted by saturnkk

I do think it is very misleading and borderline unethical to sell a car known to have a 427 engine and named 427 Cobra with anything but a true 427...
.... I was/am still a bit surprised that a man so revered in his field had these ethical blemishes.

Beating the same dead query three times in a row, despite explanations, makes me believe you are driving an agenda, not seeking wisdom and truth.

Not a popular tactic around here.

For what it's worth, from one who was there in the 60's...
The 428 in the 427 Cobra pretty much meant nothing to the average buyer.
Hey? ....just like "Spinal Tap," ...428 was one more than 427.

Like...it went to eleven.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Beating the same dead query three times in a row, despite explanations, makes me believe you are driving an agenda, not seeking wisdom and truth.

Not a popular tactic around here.

For what it's worth, from one who was there in the 60's...
The 428 in the 427 Cobra pretty much meant nothing to the average buyer.
Hey? ....just like "Spinal Tap," ...428 was one more than 427.

Like...it went to eleven.

Wisdom and truth?!?

Wow. Really?!?

So there have been those who offered varying explanations/excuses, those who do not want a hero to be questioned, and those who think he was less than perfect.


I was hoping for some counterpoint explanations or further understanding of why Shelby would do such things and with the VIN Fraud received little other than that he was "creative" and a bit of a salesman. With the 428 issue, I read this in a book that glorifies Shelby and again was curious. Found a couple different reasons that started to sound like excuses but in the end maybe the 428 issue wasn't such a big deal.

Sorry to have questioned your messiah as your reply seems very "cultish" to me. I have no agenda, other than to learn as much as I can about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now. Again, I was very surprised to read about the VIN fraud and the 428 issue and was looking to better understand it rather than excuse it away. Like I said, I am new to ownership and this forum and thought that some perspective may help. I was really looking for reasons to mitigate or even dismiss these incidents. In the end, I think that the 428 issue may be explainable although somewhat strange and the other issue of VIN fraud not as much.

Thank you to all those who were kind enough to explain their perspectives and offer some good reading material! I have placed my order for the Shelby Registry book and will likely seek out a few others.

Since it seems a good number of people want to quickly sweep this under the rug, as someone else stated, let’s just talk cars as it seems that discussing Shelby in any light less than hero is going to bring out this kind of silly retort post.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

.... is going to bring out this kind of silly retort post.

If you are referring to my post as a silly retort, that is a bit of a failure in judgement.

Sorry, I ain't buying your explanation.

"...about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now." seems a little hard to swallow.

If it's true, do some homework and come back with your opinions.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

Like I said, I am new to ownership

So, specifically, what do you own?

As for the rest, some of us have been around the cars for 30+ years, since you are "new to this", you have already come across as someone with a chip on his shoulder and is not who he says he is.

So again, I'll ask, what Shelby product do you own?


Bill S.

PS: There was never any "VIN FRAUD", Ford engine production had issues producing the 427 sideoiler engines and substituted the 428CJ in it's place. All are well documented with their factory invoices. All are also extremely well documented in the SAAC Registry I pointed you to. You want to learn everything you can about the cars, that is the only book I would suggest you purchase right now.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Frankly, I get annoyed by the vilification of Mr. Shelby by those who have had no personal or business dealings with him. Read Rinsey Mill's biography and get a feel for the whole person. There are people that vilify him, and many, many more that personally knew the man and loved the guy.

I hope I'm measured the same grace when I've passed.
Cheers,
DD

Well said, Doug.[/quote]

I will seek out this biography, thanks!

For the record, I was not trying to villify him nor saint him. Seems that maybe there is a black and white perception of where one must stand?

I only can wish that I would have had the opportunity to meet him at this point, unfortunately...

[Nedsel]

C'mon, guys, lighten up. Everyone knows Carroll was as much a devious SOB as he was a creative genius. So he had two sides, and played the one he felt like using depending on the circumstances. That's not news and it shouldn't be grounds for angst.

[Dangerous Doug]

Saturnkk: Didn't mean for you to think I was referring to you. There are plenty of people on this forum who own Cobra and who have taken a vociferous dislike of Carroll Shelby, though they have never known or dealt with the man. They just haven't spoken up, yet. That is what I find wearisome.

On the chassis/VIN issue: I think he had some leftover registration paperwork, and had some chassis built---and tried to make it look like these were leftover cars. Truly, more than a lapse of good judgment. Definitely a flaw in the life.

Messiah? No. Interesting and colorful person, with a racing career and magnetic personality beyond the abilities of most? Certainly.

There are no hero worshippers here. But flawed as he may have been, the balance is tipped far to the opposite in terms of having earned my respect and admiration.

In reading the biography today, it turns out that Carroll put out a fire on an Allard he was driving by pissing on the carburetor---in his first international race! Now, if THAT doesn't earn your respect, or at least chuckle and not take things too seriously...

"Carroll Shelby: The Authorized Biography" by Rinsey Mills. I got my copy from Cobranda.

Cheers,
DD

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by Dangerous Doug

"Carroll Shelby: The Authorized Biography" by Rinsey Mills.

"Authorized" should be the clue that perhaps some items may be left out or glossed over. When the "unauthorized bio" hits, then the fur will fly!

Not that this will affect the value of the three Ferrari 250 GTOs that I have. That were never registered. In my barn. Behind my house. Near the factory. Close to the auction block.........................

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

"Authorized" should be the clue that perhaps some items may be left out or glossed over. When the "unauthorized bio" hits, then the fur will fly!

Santa brought Ellie a copy and she is quite happy. She says it has a lot of meat and, as a dog, she can appreciate that. BTW, she says your fur remark is not politically correct.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Santa brought Ellie a copy and she is quite happy. She says it has a lot of meat and, as a dog, she can appreciate that. BTW, she says your fur remark is not politically correct.

I have some amazon gift cards. Is it worth a buy or should I get it from the library? Pictures to me make a difference - if there are good ones I'd be in for a buy.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have some amazon gift cards. Is it worth a buy or should I get it from the library? Pictures to me make a difference - if there are good ones I'd be in for a buy.

This is not a picture book. In fact, it is unusually spartan on the pics. Over 500 pages of text and maybe 20 pages of pics -- that's it. I think it's worth a buy, though... and so does Ellie (and she can't even read).

[Dangerous Doug]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I have some amazon gift cards. Is it worth a buy or should I get it from the library? Pictures to me make a difference - if there are good ones I'd be in for a buy.

I say, "Buy it!" It's a smooth read with a lot of fun stories---even in just the little bit I've read so far. I'll be referring back to it for anecdotes, no doubt.

As for "authorized" I'd like to think Shelby would read the unseemly moments and think, "Well, $#it, that's pretty much what happened..." but only Shelby and perhaps Rinsey could answer that.

Oh, another tidbit: That whole, "left the chicken farm in a hurry to get to the races so he showed up in his farmer overalls" story? Not true, according to the "authorized biography". But I'll let you guys read that one for yourself.

Cheers,
DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Search

For all: This is a really good read. Quite fun. Enjoy!

DD

[REAL 1]

Saturnkk: you did come across as one with an agenda. There are many here who have been in and around Cobras, real and replica for years even dating back to when it all began. The knowledge depth here is unmatched. In fact for your edification Computrworks is among the most knowledgeable and is a Concours judge for SAAC. For someone who has yet to learn the basics a little respect and humility would be nice. This approach is likely to bare more fruit then a combative argumentative one.

This forum has never shied away from criticizing CS. Do a search and some reading.

As dangerous Doug and Ned said he was not perfect. CS, however, did and accomplished great things in his life. He gave us much. He is and will always be a true automotive legend and icon and hero.

He was always polite and a gentleman in my contacts with him.

He is missed.

P.S. Waiting for the pics of your Cobra.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Saturnkk: you did come across as one with an agenda. There are many here who have been in and around Cobras, real and replica for years even dating back to when it all began. The knowledge depth here is unmatched. In fact for your edification Computrworks is among the most knowledgeable and is a Concours judge for SAAC. For someone who has yet to learn the basics a little respect and humility would be nice. This approach is likely to bare more fruit then a combative argumentative one.

This forum has never shied away from criticizing CS. Do a search and some reading.

As dangerous Doug and Ned said he was not perfect. CS, however, did and accomplished great things in his life. He gave us much. He is and will always be a true automotive legend and icon and hero.

He was always polite and a gentleman in my contacts with him.

He is missed.

P.S. Waiting for the pics of your Cobra.

Thanks for the reply. Rereading my posts I am not sure how I came across with an agenda other than what I thought I clearly stated early on in my first post. I have been called a liar in so many words (when I said I knew very little about Shelby prior to buying a Cobra replica), called out as having a chip on my shoulder and an agenda as well as asked about my car as if I didn't really have one, and that I need humility...?!?

I understood that there may be some who were friends with the man and/or admired him a great deal but I guess I didn't expect that. I will read my books and draw my own opinions. I had hoped to reachout here for more perspective from people like yourself but as I said earlier, I don't think that was the best idea at this point. If I came off as anything but sincere in my post of being surprised and wanting to learn and understand more I apologize.

Here is the only (bad) picture I have so far...

I have since replaced the steering wheel with one more period correct. I hope to replace the wheels this spring as well as look into getting some Avon tires possibly. Additionally, I would like to replace the shifter and rework the wiring. I would also like to look into getting 5 point belts. I bought side pipe shields from Mike Francuck (he lives fairly close to me so I was very fortunate to save on shipping by meeting him!) and they look great in the box! Finally, I have ordered floor mats, replaced the extinguisher with a chrome one and other little odds and ends stuff...

It isn't a "show" car. I plan to drive every day it isn't raining!

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

If I came off as anything but sincere in my post of being surprised and wanting to learn and understand more I apologize.

Graciously accepted.

...and there is no such thing as a bad picture of a Cobra!

Have fun and enjoy the Forum.