Pre-oiler question

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Chilibit

I thought the OP's question was about pre-lubrication as distinct from accumulators and systems designed to prevent oil starvation. Such simple prelubers exist and we used to use them on turbo motors before the advent of water cooled bearings. We ran them till we heard pressure bog the pump on start up and ran them on a timer at shut down. Today it is focused on preventing a dry start. The reservoir is your existing oil pan. Simple and effective in my experience.

Ciao

With Accusump you get both, from their website -
Our Accusump Oil Accumulators deliver oil before starting to eliminate dry start scuffing (pre-oiling) and discharge oil during low oil pressure surges to protect against engine damage during demanding racing conditions.

I think most pre-lubers fill that dual roll, but if pre-oiling is all you want then the 1 QRT accumulator is sufficient (more than enough actually).

[AL427SBF]

... but all this raises a question I have. If all you want to do is pre-oil only, I would think wiring a switch to your oil pump (toggle type on the dash) and flick that on for a few seconds before startup would accomplish the same thing?

[lippy]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

... but all this raises a question I have. If all you want to do is pre-oil only, I would think wiring a switch to your oil pump (toggle type on the dash) and flick that on for a few seconds before startup would accomplish the same thing?

But that would only work with an electric oil pump

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

But that would only work with an electric oil pump

... and I was just going to let Al's suggestion slide on by, in to the night, with no acerbic, wise-ass, how dumb is that, type retort.... Now, had that been Chas' suggestion, because he was in the throes of some sort of apoplectic fit, I would have been all over him.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

. Now, had that been Chas' suggestion, because he was in the throes of some sort of apoplectic fit, I would have been all over him.

Be seated clown-man. I'm not gettin' apoplectic over this crowd. Nobody gets it except Clayton and Bob Cowan---HELL! you even get it!
Note to self: write constructive posts in crayon.

[patrickt]

OK, Lippy... whatcha gonna do?

[Chilibit]

I am imagining that an accumulator is just that. It delivers a supply of oil to the motor before start up. But that oil is at 1 bar. A pre-luber would use a small electric motor/pump to pressurize the system and float the bearings. That seems better. Perhaps a simple accumulator pressurizes. I don't know.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by lippy

But that would only work with an electric oil pump

You guys are on your toes, just checkin'
How Accusump works, again from their website -
The Accusump is connected to the pressure side of an engine's oiling system and is charged by the engines own oil pump. Its simple, efficient design revolves around a hydraulic piston separating an air pre-charge side and an oil reservoir side. On the oil side of the Accusump it has an outlet that goes into the engine's oiling system, controlled by a valve. On the air side it's equipped with a pressure gauge(on oil accumulators only) and a schrader air valve, which allows you to add a pre-charge of air pressure to the Accusump.

[blykins]

If he can fit it in the car, a pre-oiler is a wise decision in my mind. He won't be road racing or drag racing, so he doesn't really need anything to supply oil in the event of an uncovered pan pickup.

When we fire an engine for the first time on the dyno, we don't just start it and wait for oil pressure to build up. We will prime the pump again, or at the very least pull the plugs out and wheel the engine over without a load on it.

The $3000 figure in the article above is very misleading. The 1 quart accumulator from Canton is a little over $200. The plumbing is extra, of course, but a lot of guys like to put remote filter mounts and such in their Cobras anyway.

Seeing the oil pressure gauge move before before the engine lights off is a win/win in my mind, especially if the engine is going to sit for a few months at a time.

It always tickles me when guys will pay $17-18k for an engine, but want to cheap-out on the oil, and the supplies to maintain it.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by blykins

The plumbing is extra, of course, but a lot of guys like to put remote filter mounts and such in their Cobras anyway.

From what I understand, you don't even need the remote oil kit. You can use a sandwich adapter between the block and the oil filter mount. Ballpark, the cost is about $200 for the Accusump, $175 for the installation kit (including the sandwich adapter), and $25 for the mounting kit, for a total of $400. Of course it would be more to locate the unit inside the car (longer hoses), or if I wanted the billet mounting brackets. Brent is right. This is an expensive engine so I want to do what I can to preserve his good work.

[olddog]

So let's say you have a 1 or 2 quart accumulator. Your changing your oil.

Do you open the valve and drain the accumulator, so that oil is also changed? Unless there is a way to fill it with oil and pressurize it, this means you have to start the engine and wait for oil pressure. I expect you would want to close the valve until after the engine builds pressure. Then open slowly.

OR

Do you not drain the accumulator and leave the same oil in it. Remember the oil does not flow through it, just in and out. If you only use half the accumulation on starts, half the oil is never flushed or circulated. I'm sure there is some mixing. I'm kind of looking at it this way. I wouldn't change my oil and add in 2 quarts from the pan I just drained out, so I do not like this.

[Tom Wells]

olddog,

Been changing my 10 quarts of oil for years, including the 3-QT ACCUSUMP. The procedure I use is to warm the car, emptying the accumulator and refilling it a few times to get all the oil warm including what's inside the accumulator.

Then I open the valve and drain everything, put in the new filter and ten new quarts of oil.

Finally, fire it up, open the valve and let the accumulator refill. I don't have to rev it to build pressure with the new, cold oil. Note that the engine has just been running to warm the oil prior to the change, so there's still a residue of the old oil in all the bearings etc.

If you're concerned about "hydraulic-ing," where there's way too much oil in the pan for when the pistons go to the bottom of their strokes and break, it isn't going to happen. If it did happen, the starter couldn't turn the crankshaft.

No seals blow either.

Or maybe you have another problem in mind?

Anyhow, been doing this two to four times a year for 6-7 years and no problems.

It seems to take just seconds (maybe 15-30 seconds?) for the thing to fill.

Only problem I have so far is the price of the ten quarts of oil keeps doubling

Tom

[Bill E]

221070731804 Ebay Has an electric oil pump but it is expensive 550.00 I did a quick search and did not find a good 12 v system that wound be a bolt in set up. It looks like all the parts you need are available on line Could be a good sideline for someone.

[undy]

I luv my 2 qt accusump! I want to keep my $20K motor alive as long as I can.

It's pre-lube duty only. FWIW, my DD would kick my Cobra's butt every way imaginable on the track anyway...

[AL427SBF]

blykins
It always tickles me when guys will pay $17-18k for an engine, but want to cheap-out on the oil, and the supplies to maintain it.

Hum, penny dumb AND pound foolish

[Jerry Clayton]

The places that a pre oiler will lubercate(bearings) will have oil on them any way. Just because it will pressurize the oil galley down to the MAIN bearings does not mean that it will get any oil to the rod bearings(only IFFFFFFFFF they happen to be perfectly aligned with the oil galley (in the crank) holes----------
They will NOT put any oil on the cylinder bores, wrist pins etc and in most cases will do little for the cam shaft or lifter bases--------

One of my concerns for an engine that sets for a period of time-------valve springs that are compressed toward coil bind---causing premature failures in the valve train components----

Another area-----seems like a mouse took a bunch of dog food up the exhaust header, thru an open exhaust valve (900lift) and filled a cylinder for a winter habitat!!!!!!!!!!!

So--In conclusion---you would do better worrying about mounting a front license plate or a second roll bar than a pre oiler!!!!!!!!!!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

The places that a pre oiler will lubercate(bearings) will have oil on them any way. Just because it will pressurize the oil galley down to the MAIN bearings does not mean that it will get any oil to the rod bearings(only IFFFFFFFFF they happen to be perfectly aligned with the oil galley (in the crank) holes----------
They will NOT put any oil on the cylinder bores, wrist pins etc and in most cases will do little for the cam shaft or lifter bases--------

Agree with ya on this......

My race car sat at least 2 months without running and I decided to check/set the valves on the solid roller cam on a cold engine first,then hot.Pulled the valve covers,turned the engine over with a remote starter button and I had oil coming out of the push rods with only a few revolutions and less than 2 seconds of turning the engine over with the starter......I'm using a Melling High Performance oil pump,standard pressure/standard volume....and it does have a 8 quart road race pan/remote filter and oil cooler!!!!!!!!
I have an oil pressure warning light above the oil pressure gauge,it is set on 20 psi....until the pressure gets to 21 psi, the red light is ON...When starting the car after it has sat sometimes 2 to 3 months, I crank it over with the ignition OFF,when the oil pressure light goes off,I flip the ignition switch on and fire the engine.....I've never really timed it, but I'd bet it takes no more than 2 seconds of cranking to get past 20 psi......

David

[Bill E]

Jerry ,

Being under the assumption that these units only work when the whole is lined up would assume that the bearing is so tight that it would actually cap off the wholes in the oil galleys. There is usually 2000ths clearance and the crank actually floats on a sheet of oil in the bearing. This is why diesel trucks with this unit lasts so long. You are right about it not lubing the cylinder wall, but the rings are a fairly low tension and the fuel does have some lubricating properties. I worked in the marine industry for many years and boats sit for extended periods of time. To fire up an engine that had been sitting we would pull the distributor, bring the oil up to pressure, and run outboard premixed fuel for the first 10 minutes.

[ERA Chas]

Both Clayton and Bill E's advice echoes what I wrote pages ago. You don't have any compelling need for either type of oil enhancement.
And I highly regard Brent and his advice, I just don't think he's installed any of these in an ERA.
I gave you specific reasons why it's just not an elegant or wise solution for an ERA. And creates further problems for routine maintenance.
I bought an Accusump with the same ideas as you cherish. After plotting the installation with the pieces in hand (not just the instruction sheet) , I decided against it. And a talk with my machinist (a hardcore racer) taught me what Jerry is telling you.
Trying to save you $400 on stuff that will eventually sit on your shelf. This is 27 years with the same car advice. And the same 550HP 427 still going strong after 2 decades.
You're NOT going to trash your $20K engine.
You'd be better advised to learn how to pull your distributor and prime the way I and several others have told you. As Jerry states-that's of limited value as well.
You're making this a lot harder than it is.

[patrickt]

Uhhh, what if I just ran a 240v line to my mechanical oil pump and just kinda forced it to spin over with a big blast of current? Seems like that would do the trick....