Ford engine cobra vs. Chevy engine cobra- race for bragging rights?

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

There are many good choices for power out there, a cammed LS7 or the recent hemi's pretty impressive. I made my motor decision back in 2010 and went with an all aluminum dart 427w, for me the sweet spot between SB and BB. Since then the options for power have really opened up, God Bless America for the recent muscle car boom! About the only Ford BB I would consider would be a cammer, particularly if I knew I was running up against some chevy BB's

You would be out to lunch with a Cammer unless you want it for appearance only, the Big Block Chevys will eat it alive. You need to get a Kaase Boss 9 if you want to run with a modern (good heads) big block chevy.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

You would be out to lunch with a Cammer unless you want it for appearance only, the Big Block Chevys will eat it alive. You need to get a Kaase Boss 9 if you want to run with a modern (good heads) big block chevy.

800 HP out of a pond block is not bad but I don't doubt the big chevy's make more. In a cobra I could live with an all aluminum cammer, 1/4 mile really isn't my thing.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

800 HP out of a pond block is not bad but I don't doubt the big chevy's make more. In a cobra I could live with an all aluminum cammer, 1/4 mile really isn't my thing.

1000 is certainly within reach normally aspirated with a single Dominator BBC, who said anything about drag racing, we are talking horsepower. Everything I own except for a boat is Ford powered but you have to be realistic when it comes to engine design.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

1000 is certainly within reach normally aspirated with a single Dominator BBC, who said anything about drag racing, we are talking horsepower. Everything I own except for a boat is Ford powered but you have to be realistic when it comes to engine design.

Well, I was talking HP in the context of these cars as street drivers and the occasional drag strip run. Seems to me 800-1000 HP would belong in a cobra whose forte is the drag strip.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Well, I was talking HP in the context of these cars as street drivers and the occasional drag strip run. Seems to me 800-1000 HP would belong in a cobra whose forte is the drag strip.

In that case a good LS would do the job better than a Cammer and have about 200 lbs less front end weight. I think replicas are great because you can drive them and enjoy them. Why tie yourself to old designs with poor geometry and dated engine design. If you like the basic shape and fun to drive (read danger factor) have at it and make it what you want it to be. If I were doing a replica I would really go after weight reduction and a super stiff chassis with good geometry, that would be really fun to drive and still look "right" to folks as you drive by. If you are into sitting in lawn chairs at car shows then you can really go after original detail, but to me the fun of these cars is in the DRIVING.
I do not understand making an exact replica but who am I to criticize someone who is building something that they want. It is all about what makes you happy in the car world.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

In that case a good LS would do the job better than a Cammer and have about 200 lbs less front end weight. I think replicas are great because you can drive them and enjoy them. Why tie yourself to old designs with poor geometry and dated engine design. If you like the basic shape and fun to drive (read danger factor) have at it and make it what you want it to be. If I were doing a replica I would really go after weight reduction and a super stiff chassis with good geometry, that would be really fun to drive and still look "right" to folks as you drive by. If you are into sitting in lawn chairs at car shows then you can really go after original detail, but to me the fun of these cars is in the DRIVING.
I do not understand making an exact replica but who am I to criticize someone who is building something that they want. It is all about what makes you happy in the car world.

You know I meant to ask what do you mean "danger factor" and poor geometry? If you are really saying a "modern chassis" are "safer" than the original design what specific facts are you relying on or empirical data are you relying on? Last I checked many originals are still being vintage raced safely. The current Shelby production Cobras raced in a spec series. No one was killed and no cars failed catastrophically as far as I know. The original Cobras won a World Title and 7 SCCA A production titles. Ken Miles and Dave McDonald were killed testing "more technologically" advanced cars (the GT40 J car and an Indy car respectively) not Cobras.

In fact the failures that predominate the threads on this site all seem to be those "more advanced" "stiffer" chassis with good geometry cars you are alluding to. Geez, just last week we had someone tragically killed when a SPF rear failed.

I don't recall any threads on this site dealing with CSX failures (original or current production) causing deaths or injuries. Maybe there were but I don't recall any. Maybe you can enlighten us.

You want weight reduction? These cars already weigh only 2000 lbs. You want a stiffer chassis?. Fine. How is that "safer"? I can follow some attenuated argument as to track use but it's not safer for street use. Perhaps it improves suspension ability in competition settings on the track but that doesn't necessarily make it safer necessarliy. I could argue the opposite.

Absent a full cage your "cutting edge, stiff chassis Cobra replica" will fold like a cheap camera if hit on the street by that Honda Mini Van just like my "dated" design Cobra. You will be just as dead a me.

Why tie yourself to "dated designs"? Well .... the Cobra shape is a dated design, no?. You keep tying yourself to that one. You could improve the design of that also. It's aero characteristics suck. However, isn't the idea to replicate the Car your pretending to drive? Hell if all you want is the "body shape" but nothing else and you want the leading cutting edge technology performance then go right to the top and buy a used F1 race car and slap a Street Beast body to it. Keep the engine where it is since no need to be faithful to the original. That right there is cutting edge "Cobra replica" all right. But is it really a Cobra replica? When have we gone so far from what these cars are supposed to be that owner interpretation has pushed it the equivalent of some "f'n" modern art master piece that has absolutely no relation to the Cobra to any degree other than façade. It is a pretender wearing a Cobra Halloween mask. Nothing more.

Having a Chevy motor in a Cobra replica is sacrilege and the best and fastest way to torpedo the resale value of any Cobra replica. Period. End of story. Any argument to the contrary is farcical.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You know I meant to ask what do you mean "danger factor" and poor geometry? If you are really saying a "modern chassis" are "safer" than the original design what specific facts are you relying on or empirical data are you relying on? Last I checked many originals are still being vintage raced safely. The current Shelby production Cobras raced in a spec series. No one was killed and no cars failed catastrophically as far as I know. The original Cobras won a World Title and 7 SCCA A production titles. Ken Miles and Dave McDonald were killed testing "more technologically" advanced cars (the GT40 J car and an Indy car respectively) not Cobras.

In fact the failures that predominate the threads on this site all seem to be those "more advanced" "stiffer" chassis with good geometry cars you are alluding to. Geez, just last week we had someone tragically killed when a SPF rear failed.

I don't recall any threads on this site dealing with CSX failures (original or current production) causing deaths or injuries. Maybe there were but I don't recall any. Maybe you can enlighten us.

You want weight reduction? These cars already weigh only 2000 lbs. You want a stiffer chassis?. Fine. How is that "safer"? I can follow some attenuated argument as to track use but it's not safer for street use. Perhaps it improves suspension ability in competition settings on the track but that doesn't necessarily make it safer necessarliy. I could argue the opposite.

Absent a full cage your "cutting edge, stiff chassis Cobra replica" will fold like a cheap camera if hit on the street by that Honda Mini Van just like my "dated" design Cobra. You will be just as dead a me.

Why tie yourself to "dated designs"? Well .... the Cobra shape is a dated design, no?. You keep tying yourself to that one. You could improve the design of that also. It's aero characteristics suck. However, isn't the idea to replicate the Car your pretending to drive? Hell if all you want is the "body shape" but nothing else and you want the leading cutting edge technology performance then go right to the top and buy a used F1 race car and slap a Street Beast body to it. Keep the engine where it is since no need to be faithful to the original. That right there is cutting edge "Cobra replica" all right. But is it really a Cobra replica? When have we gone so far from what these cars are supposed to be that owner interpretation has pushed it the equivalent of some "f'n" modern art master piece that has absolutely no relation to the Cobra to any degree other than façade. It is a pretender wearing a Cobra Halloween mask. Nothing more.

Having a Chevy motor in a Cobra replica is sacrilege and the best and fastest way to torpedo the resale value of any Cobra replica. Period. End of story. Any argument to the contrary is farcical.

You must be a lawyer and not have any technical background at all, to call a an original Cobra safe in a crash is absurd. What I meant by danger factor was the difficulty of driving a 2000 pound + car with 500 or so horsepower on street tires or even race tires. You had better have quick hands and know what you are doing to get into the throttle in one of these cars.
The power- to- weight ratio alone is enough of a problem. Couple that with a short wheel base and you have a recipe for disaster. Do you really think a continuation car is any safer than many of the replicas? If you do, you don't have a clue about crash safety. Vintage racing is a poor example. You have an accident, you get banned for a year in many series. Nobody wants to crash a valuable car and if they do it is usually minor. When it isn't, they are hurt or killed. I love the shape of the Cobra body. I have had mine for almost 49 years and it is unchanged. I just don't like the design of the suspension because it limits what the car could be with that light weight. I drove my first winged Formula car in 1972 and what an eye opening experience! Brakes that were linear, suspension that worked properly and great cornering power. I realized then that a Cobra could be a lot better than Ford, and Shelby American made it in 1965. I would not use safety in a sentence about any original or continuation car. The main frame rails are under your a$$. How do you think you will fare in a side crash? You will probably be killed. How about front crash? The engine will join you in the passenger compartment; no crush zone, and no steering column collapse feature. A serious crash will probably kill you because you are not protected with a good belt system or air bags. The improvements I was alluding to are for dynamic handling NOT safety.
I was supervisor of passenger car front structure at one time in my career at Ford and our unit had to design the structure to meet 35 mph crash standards. I was the body engineering program manager for the 89 T-Bird program where we had to meet seat belt retention, roll over, roof crush and front and rear crash standards, so I have an idea of what happens in a crash.
Later on, I was chief passenger car chassis engineer for Ford and then Director of commercial truck engineering. All this bloviating is to establish my credentials to comment on the original Cobra design. I knew Klaus Arning (designer of the 427 Cobra suspension) and I am sure he would agree with all this were he still with us. You must not be exploring the limits of your car because if you were, you would see how bad it is compared with your Ford GT, one of the best handling and safest cars out there.
Too bad you are not in California because I would love to give you a ride in an original car that actually works dynamically. I had a 1963 Stingray with fuel injection, racing suspension and brake package when I bought my Cobra in 1965 and it handled way better than the Cobra as delivered.
The Cobra's acceleration and braking capability were so superior though, that I was happy at the time.
FE engines, don't get me started. At least the new blocks and cylinder heads are better than the very dated “side oiler” design. The majority of people with replicas have them to drive and enjoy not to try and fool someone into thinking it is a “real one” so why not have a modern engine that is reliable, light and makes great power?

[REAL 1]

I think AL427SBF and OldDog both have a point.

From what I can see attendance at SAAC events seems to have dropped over the years. I don't know if membership has dropped. This could clearly be an indication in dropping interest in the "Cobra" as to it's history and interest/concern in Cobra authenticity and accuracy. However, there will always be a segment of the "Cobra" hobby and enthusiast pool that will retain a keen interest in authenticity, provenance, accuracy and history. To those people the accuracy of a correct BB or SB in a Cobra replica is paramount. As more and more "replicas" stray farther and farther from aesthetic accuracy those remaining aesthetically correct may actually have a higher and higher value to those that seek them out.

What strikes me as comical is that as the recipe of new wave "hot rod builders" as they like to refer to themselves stray father and farther away from what a Cobra really is and was how these guys also continue to self servingly refer to their "creations" as "Cobras replicas" which they are not. "Cobras" they clearly are not. These builders continue to further diliute what the Cobra is and was but continue anoint the creations they build as a "Cobras". Ridiculous.

Case in point: Does a square tube chassis car, with inboard rear brakes, BMW suspension components, digital gauges and a Coyote motor even qualify as a "Cobra replica". I know what SAAC definition is of a Cobra replica but isn't there a point where a hot rod having nothing in common or even remotely replicating the original functionally except a plastic Cobra shell doesn't even qualify as a Cobra replica. Isn't it bastardizing the entire concept of a "Cobra replica". Isn't the basic proposition of building or buying a "Cobra replica" to replicate to a large extent or at least to some extent what the Cobra was? Isn't there a point reached where it is more akin to a one off "hot rod" with a shaped plastic body shell merely mimicking a Cobra shape on it or a "T" Bucket with a fake Cobra shell. Substitute a Chevy motor for the Coyote motor and its even more ludicrous to refer to such a vehicle as a Cobra replica more less a Cobra. It becomes a joke. It has absolutely nothing in common with a Cobra or even an honest Cobra replica that seeks to be even half ass aesthetically correct. Nothing. It's it a farce?. It's not even a fakeydoo. Where an owner or builder does nothing to recreate what a Cobra was except put a plastic shell on a chassis that looks like a Cobra how should that be considered a "Cobra Replica" more less a Cobra.

Hey, if the anything with a Cobra shell qualifies as a "Cobra replica" or even a "Cobra" (significant distinction between the two) I will get a Cobra shell from Street Beasts and remove my daughters VW body and make her car a Cobra.

Where do you draw the line?

What's next, putting a plastic Cobra shell on a "T" Bucket, Camaro, VW, Fiat or Mercedes will qualify as a "Cobra". What a joke.

I don't know what to call those cars but they qualify as neither a Cobra replica or Cobra in my book. To refer to them as such is a farce.

You want to build a "hot rod" with a Cobra shell that has nothing in common with a Cobra except it's shape then at least have the decency not to call it a Cobra. Call it a Hot Rod with a Cobra shell on it.

It reaches a point where it's BS. Really.