CSX 1000s...

[Jamo]

Sure...send them to me again.

[Jamo]

Badge from mullen2's CSX1000...



Pic of an original AC badge...

[mullen2]

The first of the AC body CSX 1000 series don't have a lip on the rear fenders where the later ones by North Devon Metalcraft had bodies identical to the fiberglass cars with the same lip on the rear fenders as the 'glass cars.

Received this information from a gentleman who personally built some of the early AC version cars.

[mullen2]

Wanted to thank the gentleman from AC Heritage he was able to shed some light on the original tooling and also the practices used to build the AC Shelby Cobras. Below is word for word from AC Heritage. Very nice to be able to share this information here for everyone. Happy Motoring!

"There has been much misinformation regarding who does what who has what etc. In the Cobra world. I suggest you quote us on this. The AC / Shelby cars were manufactured on the wooden jigs despite various people claiming they all went in the dumpster. The wooden front end section is used for the hood section and catwalks the trunk buck and door skin jigs are used English wheels used to form the panels are from the original A.C . Works at Thames Ditton we have internal period memo's of tooling being requested in Fibreglass. A.C. Cars used fibreglass for the foot boxes and soon realised that tooling produced using this process was more economical than wooden bucks. For the Kirkham guys who own Kirkham Shelby's or KMP cars these are very well built by artisans and are more durable being manufactured using aircraft 14 guage material an Tig welded . The shape in the 289 and 427 differs from the original however they represent great quality and value. Your car retains the spirit of the old firm and the most important point is that you enjoy it. We repair Shelby period cars Kirkhams and just like the fact all you guys like Cobra's!"

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by mullen2

Wanted to thank the gentleman from AC Heritage he was able to shed some light on the original tooling and also the practices used to build the AC Shelby Cobras. Below is word for word from AC Heritage. Very nice to be able to share this information here for everyone. Happy Motoring!

"There has been much misinformation regarding who does what who has what etc. In the Cobra world. I suggest you quote us on this. The AC / Shelby cars were manufactured on the wooden jigs despite various people claiming they all went in the dumpster. The wooden front end section is used for the hood section and catwalks the trunk buck and door skin jigs are used English wheels used to form the panels are from the original A.C . Works at Thames Ditton we have internal period memo's of tooling being requested in Fibreglass. A.C. Cars used fibreglass for the foot boxes and soon realised that tooling produced using this process was more economical than wooden bucks. For the Kirkham guys who own Kirkham Shelby's or KMP cars these are very well built by artisans and are more durable being manufactured using aircraft 14 guage material an Tig welded . The shape in the 289 and 427 differs from the original however they represent great quality and value. Your car retains the spirit of the old firm and the most important point is that you enjoy it. We repair Shelby period cars Kirkhams and just like the fact all you guys like Cobra's!"

I believe half of what is written by this unnamed fellow. The rest is carefully crafted PR and nothing else, sorry. In 1985 I spent a few days at the AC facility, I spoke with the folks on the floor who were building the MK IV's, I saw bits and pieces of the original bucks, but was told the ones they were using were built from the original blueprints, but were not the originals. Way back then, why would they lie about such things. Especially given the value of originals at that time. Fast forward to the present day when the cars are worth far more, and greed has now been added to the equation. I think you get my drift.


I'll leave it at that.

Bill S.

[mullen2]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I believe half of what is written by this unnamed fellow. The rest is carefully crafted PR and nothing else, sorry. In 1985 I spent a few days at the AC facility, I spoke with the folks on the floor who were building the MK IV's, I saw bits and pieces of the original bucks, but was told the ones they were using were built from the original blueprints, but were not the originals. Way back then, why would they lie about such things. Especially given the value of originals at that time. Fast forward to the present day when the cars are worth far more, and greed has now been added to the equation. I think you get my drift.


I'll leave it at that.

Bill S.

I studied the AC Heritage Brooklands website and seems to be very legit to me. I suggest you take a good look your self. The information I posted was direct from them. They were very helpful in answering my questions. I was simply trying to pass on information I thought was quite interesting. They have a extensive collection of original AC everything way prior to the Cobra as well as well after the cobra. (I was impressed with the site). They do much more than just work on Cobras there, I don't think they need to lie. Personally if my car were to ever be damaged I think they are the only ones I would want to work on it.

Here is the contact information for the "unnamed fellow" from AC Heritage you mentioned. Steve@brooklandsmotorcompany.co.uk

Maybe you should contact him directly to try and satisfy your doubt one way or the other.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by mullen2

I studied the AC Heritage Brooklands website and seems to be very legit to me. I suggest you take a good look your self. The information I posted was direct from them. They were very helpful in answering my questions. I was simply trying to pass on information I thought was quite interesting. They have a extensive collection of original AC everything way prior to the Cobra as well as well after the cobra. (I was impressed with the site). They do much more than just work on Cobras there, I don't think they need to lie. Personally if my car were to ever be damaged I think they are the only ones I would want to work on it.

Here is the contact information for the "unnamed fellow" from AC Heritage you mentioned. Steve@brooklandsmotorcompany.co.uk

Maybe you should contact him directly to try and satisfy your doubt one way or the other.

Not going to argue, just refute what "Steve" stated as being 100% accurate. Kind of like playing the old game of telephone, one person tells you something, and as it gets passed down from one person to the next, small things change. When you get to the last person, what was originally stated, and what was now told to him hold little of the original conversation...........I'll stick with my 1985 version as the absolute fact, as I was personally there and having the conversation(s) with those actually working the floor at that time.


Bill S.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I'll stick with my 1985 version as the absolute fact, as I was personally there and having the conversation(s) with those actually working the floor at that time.
Bill S.

You can dress it up all you want with "I was there" in "1985" and talking directly to the workers working "the floor" all you want...still hearsay. Like putting lipstick on a pig.

Name names.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I believe half of what is written by this unnamed fellow. The rest is carefully crafted PR and nothing else, sorry. In 1985 I spent a few days at the AC facility, I spoke with the folks on the floor who were building the MK IV's, I saw bits and pieces of the original bucks, but was told the ones they were using were built from the original blueprints, but were not the originals. Way back then, why would they lie about such things. Especially given the value of originals at that time. Fast forward to the present day when the cars are worth far more, and greed has now been added to the equation. I think you get my drift.


I'll leave it at that.

Bill S.

I too was there in 1985. Brian, Brian, Paul, Al and Paula were the people who showed us around. And the "427/MK IV" bucks were fiberglass. The photos of the bucks and factory that were Featured in AUTOWEEK were taken by my wife. The wooden 289 bucks were there as well as other tooling but the chassis jigs had been binned by AC and had to be recreated.

[Jamo]

Good...now we have some names. Thanks!

My concern was that bill was knocking the lack of a name for the info posted above, but offered none of his own.

Post the pics...certainly seem relevant for this thread.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Good...now we have some names. Thanks!

My concern was that bill was knocking the lack of a name for the info posted above, but offered none of his own.

Post the pics...certainly seem relevant for this thread.

On top of what Mr Muck stated for names, I remember a James and a Stephan as well. James was working on a front end buck (which is where the conversation on it started), Stephan was brazing/welding body parts together. All were extremely nice to speak with, very skilled in their hand crafting. All were enthusiastic about what they were doing for a living, sans the heat on the work floor and the lack of management (that would be Brian A ) to open the damn roof vents/windows. I have Polaroids (remember those) somewhere to back up my visit while their with my newlywed wife oh some (almost) 29 years ago to date.


Bill S.

PS: If I remember correctly, bits and pieces of the old buck, some wood with metal strappings was hanging on the wall just as you walked in to the main work shop, left hand side......Funny the things you can remember from long ago quite vividly as if it was only yesterday, while today you have difficulty remember names of people you met last week

[mullen2]

Morning Boys,

Defiantly not here to argue. Only suggesting everyone take a good look at AC Heritage's web site as well as check out the Facebook page for hundreds of photos. I was very impresed with what they have in the museum as well as the vintage racing of all things A.C. Here is a link to lots of photos including some of the tooling with captions stating original 1960's tooling.

https://www.facebook.com/TeamAC/photos_stream

They seem very credible to me as well as have support of multiple original A.C. employees still living today. Guys like Les Oliver that actually built the original A.C Ace and early cobras. He started working at A.C in 1941 at 14 years old. Ronnie Saunders is another original A.C employee that frequents the facilities. Freddie Aylott worked for A.C. and was at Le Mans with the AC cobra team in 63 and 64 and is also a regular visitor to AC Heritage.

Check out the photos and enjoy them. They are what they are. Remember this is AC not Shelby. They are more in to the A.C. side of the cars. They don't build new Shelby Cobras. They only work on them.

This thread was about the few CSX 1000 early (first 13) cars that were built by AC cars at Frimley, they built the bodies and frames that were contracted for by Shelby. AC heritage now more recently has become part of AC and seems to have teamed up with current owner of AC. They are doing a great service to AC by preserving everything that has to do with AC and its history before and after the cobra was made.

I respect the fact that Bill S. and Mark IV visited Autocraft in 1985 and would like to see the photos no doubt. But AC Heritage has gone to great lengths to preserve the history of A.C. Cars for what it originally was and I can't simply discount them after what I have seen and talked to them about. Its a huge effort on their part and in my opinion done first class. I am only suggesting everyone enjoy the photos especially on the Facebook link above as I did.

They may be adding original tools and or tooling to the collection that was not there in 1985. I read one of the Facebook captions that AC Heritage-Brooklands recently acquired original tools in the photos from a original A.C. employee's daughter. She donated all the tools to the Museum.

[CobraV8]

Originally Posted by mullen2

For the Kirkham guys who own Kirkham Shelby's or KMP cars these are very well built by artisans and are more durable being manufactured using aircraft 14 guage material an Tig welded . The shape in the 289 and 427 differs from the original however they represent great quality and value.

As far as I understand the Kirkham 427 bodies are formed over dies that are taken from a wooden master buck. This buck was CNC milled from surface data created with a laser or white light scanned/respectively tactile measured point cloud of a CSX 3000 car: Kirkham bodies

You can tell the shape is spot on when comparing them with pictures of CSX3000 comp or S/C cars.

This is not the case for the Autokraft MKIV, so with due respect for the guys at AC Heritage I can hardly agree with the above statement.

Simon

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mullen2

Wanted to thank the gentleman from AC Heritage he was able to shed some light on the original tooling and also the practices used to build the AC Shelby Cobras. Below is word for word from AC Heritage. Very nice to be able to share this information here for everyone. Happy Motoring!

"There has been much misinformation regarding who does what who has what etc. In the Cobra world. I suggest you quote us on this. The AC / Shelby cars were manufactured on the wooden jigs despite various people claiming they all went in the dumpster. The wooden front end section is used for the hood section and catwalks the trunk buck and door skin jigs are used English wheels used to form the panels are from the original A.C . Works at Thames Ditton we have internal period memo's of tooling being requested in Fibreglass. A.C. Cars used fibreglass for the foot boxes and soon realised that tooling produced using this process was more economical than wooden bucks. For the Kirkham guys who own Kirkham Shelby's or KMP cars these are very well built by artisans and are more durable being manufactured using aircraft 14 guage material an Tig welded . The shape in the 289 and 427 differs from the original however they represent great quality and value. Your car retains the spirit of the old firm and the most important point is that you enjoy it. We repair Shelby period cars Kirkhams and just like the fact all you guys like Cobra's!"

I'm not sure what "aircraft 14 guage material" means to a layman like me, but I do know that the Kirkham's alloy body is .009" thicker than the original CSX 3000 (.059" vs. .050").

[mullen2]

Found some photos from 2003/2004 of CSX 1000 cars being built at AC cars in Frimley, Surrey, England. Here is a link to view the photos on AC Heritage's website.


Galleries

[Jamo]

cool stuff...thanks!

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by mullen2

Found some photos from 2003 or 2004 of CSX 1000 cars being built in England. Here is a link to view.


Galleries

Nice

[ng8264723]

For the Kirkham guys who own Kirkham Shelby's or KMP cars these are very well built by artisans and are more durable being manufactured using aircraft 14 guage material an Tig welded

I'm Kirkhams are not tig welded they are gas welded just like the originals

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by ng8264723

....and are more durable being manufactured using aircraft 14 guage material....

I know, time lag here in posting, but is that true? 14 gauge? Wow, that's mighty thick!
Cheers,
Glen

[mullen2]

Not sure on the Kirkham sheet metal thickness.