Installing a new Canton pan - Do I still need the windage tray???

[mjhcobra]

I measured the pickup from the block face and measured the pan to the bottom from the pan face with the windge tray and 2 gaskets and the diff was 3/8".

[blykins]

3/8" is good. The gaskets will compress a little when it's all bolted together.

If you're doing this with the engine in the car, I would get about 4-6 5/16" studs and place them strategically around the pan rail. Glue your gaskets on with Right Stuff or your favorite gasket sealer. Smear a thin layer in between each part of the sandwich to seal. Don't lay beads, as beads will find their way into the crankcase.

On the gasket that goes on closest to the block, look at the rear main cap and make sure the gasket doesn't cover the rear main seal drain. If it does, it could help the chance of a rear main seal leak. Take an X-Acto knife or razor blade and cut out around it. Also, if you're using ARP main studs (and some main bolts), make sure that they don't stick down below the cap far enough to keep the oil pan from sitting against the block. Make sure the windage tray doesn't block the drain or hit on any fasteners as well.

Let everything seal up over night and don't put any oil in it until you're confident it's sealed and dry.

[mjhcobra]

My Engine is out and hanging from a hoist so access is pretty good. I may put a few studs in just to help the alignment. I will check the rear main drain. I put this motor together a long time ago and forgot about the drain.
No problems with bolts before so I should be good this time around.
Thanks for the tips.

[RICK LAKE]

mjhcobra There have been some questionable testing done. On certain motor windage trays really help. In other cases no. Hemi's and FE motors have long side walls where the crank shaft spins and depending on what you are doing with the car, the crank will not whip up the oil like other motors. I do know this that solid lifter and solid rollers need all the oil spray they can get. This is the contact point between the bottom of a flat tappet or roller and camshaft contact spot. New solid lifters, (non roller) now have small holes of .010"-.015" for oiling of the contact location. This extends the life of both surfaces. I used to run solids in other motors and 10-15K miles and the wear was showing and the camshaft had wear issues. We also ran a higher valve lash above spec. This also increases wear at idle. If you are running a canton diamond windage tray, it works more like a scraper and I use this. SIDE note, make sure you can rotate the crank shaft 360 degrees and not hit the windage tray. Mine did and had to be modified. If you are running a roller lifter you can cheat the control of oil spray, flat tappets,I wouldn't. Stroker motor would need to be checked too.
1/4" to 3/8" clearance for pickup is good. I also tack weld the tube to the oil pump. It's a safety issue to protect a $10,000 motor. If you are going to race, pull the oil pump and safety wire the 4 bolts on the bottom of the pump. Also Over fill the motor 1quart of oil. This stops any starvation of the oil getting back to the pan. The oil returns are slow in and FE motor and this helps. It may leak from the rear main seal or may not. Also make sure your dipstick is reading the correct oil level.
Do you have any oiling modes done to the motor?? Mostly the adding of limiters to the heads for the rocker oiling and valve spring cooling. I know some of the guys are running a .060" oriface in both heads. I use a .080" to be safe. It fills the heads with oil and helps cool the valve springs and rockers. Easy way is to add allen screw into the supply hole in the head, tap head, drill hole in middle of screw and inset. Make sure it clears the bolt for the shafts and use the correct bolt or stud for the supply hole.
What oil pump are you running. I would reccomend an HVHP pump with a min of 60# spring. I like 80# better. I race and use #100 psi spring. 15 years of racing and no failures to bottom end of motor. IMO the most important thing is not let the motor idle for long and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.
Side notes, if you are running an oiler cooler, add an accusump to the motor. You can use it as both a preoiler before starting the motor,( 85% of motor wear happens on starting a motor and waiting for oil pressure to build ) and if running high "G" turns help maintain oil pressure when the oil is slow to return to the oil pan. This is also the reason for running 1 quart over full. You can use a manual valve or go electrical. Good luck. Rick L.

[Bernica]

There is a lot of info about this and the guys responding are as good as it gets.
I also ran across this that may help. Good luck with the build

Ford FE Engine Oiling System: The Complete Guide

[mjhcobra]

Rick,
While the engine is out I installed a Mellings M57HV high volume oil pump, which replaced the stock Mellings pump. My Cobra will probably not see any track or strip time-just some normal fun on the roads. It is a stock P.I. engine with the CJ cam and hydraulic lifters. No screamer, just fun to drive. I had to have an FE in my Cobra or to me, it would not be a Cobra. I have no idea which spring is in the new Mellings pump and I am not sure how to figure it out.
The windage tray worked fine with the stock pan for clearances, so it will be fine with the Canton. The purpose of the new 7 qt. Canton pan was to add oil to help starvation. From what I read it is actually an 8 qt. pan if you count the filter (Canton 15-820). One of the next things on the list is to add the oil cooler, which I guess means more total oil. I am trying to figure out how to mount the oil cooler and build a shroud for it as well as do the plumbing correctly. Currently all I have it the remote filter in use.
Thanks again for all help.
Martin

[RICK LAKE]

mjhcobra I think we talked and your name was MIke?? Go with the ford tray. Drill some 1/4 holes in the center to help the oil return faster. Hydro lifters are great. I agree with a ford motor in a cobra over others.
For the lines for the oil cooler one goes up the l/s frame and the other loops over in the raditor opening and parrells the other back to the oil housing. Watch out for rubbing of the lines. Use clamps with rubber insolators and screw them to the frame. I think ERA will show you a picture of the lines being routed.
If you call Melling they can tell you what spring is in the oil pump.
What oil are you looking to run? 10-30, 10-40, 15-40, The thicker oil will help keep the psi level up. I also add 1 quart of lucas oil suppliment to the oil. This should be done with the motor running and oil is warm to mix it. Pour it in slow. It has a cligging compound in it. This help prevent dry starts and stops the oil from coming off the metal parts if the motor sits for a week. It will cost a couple of HP but if it help saves a $10,000.00 + motor who cares. Rick L. Ps not 100% sure but I think the HV oil pump comes with a #50 pound spring. The HVHP comes with a 60# spring. You can add a washer behind the spring to get the 60 number. Pull the spring out of the pump and install the washer, reinstall the plug and safety wire it so the plug can't come out or get loose.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

...and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.

Rick, so I understand, are you saying there should be 30# idle pressure at the front (before the loss from front-back), or at the back (after the loss from front-back)? Thanks.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

mjhcobra There have been some questionable testing done. On certain motor windage trays really help. In other cases no. Hemi's and FE motors have long side walls where the crank shaft spins and depending on what you are doing with the car, the crank will not whip up the oil like other motors. I do know this that solid lifter and solid rollers need all the oil spray they can get. This is the contact point between the bottom of a flat tappet or roller and camshaft contact spot. New solid lifters, (non roller) now have small holes of .010"-.015" for oiling of the contact location. This extends the life of both surfaces. I used to run solids in other motors and 10-15K miles and the wear was showing and the camshaft had wear issues. We also ran a higher valve lash above spec. This also increases wear at idle. If you are running a canton diamond windage tray, it works more like a scraper and I use this. SIDE note, make sure you can rotate the crank shaft 360 degrees and not hit the windage tray. Mine did and had to be modified. If you are running a roller lifter you can cheat the control of oil spray, flat tappets,I wouldn't. Stroker motor would need to be checked too.
1/4" to 3/8" clearance for pickup is good. I also tack weld the tube to the oil pump. It's a safety issue to protect a $10,000 motor. If you are going to race, pull the oil pump and safety wire the 4 bolts on the bottom of the pump. Also Over fill the motor 1quart of oil. This stops any starvation of the oil getting back to the pan. The oil returns are slow in and FE motor and this helps. It may leak from the rear main seal or may not. Also make sure your dipstick is reading the correct oil level.
Do you have any oiling modes done to the motor?? Mostly the adding of limiters to the heads for the rocker oiling and valve spring cooling. I know some of the guys are running a .060" oriface in both heads. I use a .080" to be safe. It fills the heads with oil and helps cool the valve springs and rockers. Easy way is to add allen screw into the supply hole in the head, tap head, drill hole in middle of screw and inset. Make sure it clears the bolt for the shafts and use the correct bolt or stud for the supply hole.
What oil pump are you running. I would reccomend an HVHP pump with a min of 60# spring. I like 80# better. I race and use #100 psi spring. 15 years of racing and no failures to bottom end of motor. IMO the most important thing is not let the motor idle for long and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.
Side notes, if you are running an oiler cooler, add an accusump to the motor. You can use it as both a preoiler before starting the motor,( 85% of motor wear happens on starting a motor and waiting for oil pressure to build ) and if running high "G" turns help maintain oil pressure when the oil is slow to return to the oil pan. This is also the reason for running 1 quart over full. You can use a manual valve or go electrical. Good luck. Rick L.

All of this is very relative, depending on the application, type of racing, what parts are being used, etc. There are no absolutes for anything.

The amount of oil to the top of the engine will depend on how the rockers are oiled and what lifters are used. Most of your FE race setups are now pushrod oiled. To go along with that, most of your good solid roller lifters are beyond edge orifice oiling, meaning that they won't pass a lot of oil up to the valvetrain unless modified. If the engine is going in a street car or a road race engine, I will take a Dremel and connect the orifice to the band with a small channel so that they will pass more oil. On drag race engines or street/strip deals, I will leave them alone. You'd be surprised at how much oil gets to the top, even without any modification.

With the bushed lifters, I wouldn't mind for the engine to idle all day long. I tell my customers to idle the engines at around 1200. With pressure fed bushed lifters, the life is much longer than the lifters from 10 years ago.

On engines that feed through the head, I use a .070" restrictor in the head.

You do not need a ton of oil pressure, even racing. I can show you some pictures of some Cleveland rod bearings that went through a season of being drag raced every weekend, with 130 degree water temp, leaving at 5500 and shifting at sometimes 7600 rpm....with a .0025" rod bearing clearance. The engine showed 50 pounds of oil pressure at the rear....probably about 60-65 at the front. The bearings still had my bore mic marks in them.

I like to safety wire the 4 bolts on the pump as well. Actually, I buy them from Doug Garifo, and they are already safety wired and everything is moly coated. As for the pickup, if it's not a Cleveland or a Chevy, 2 bolts with lock washers and Loctite is more than sufficient. WOT oil pressure at 7000-7500 is usually no more than 80 psi tops. The pressure at idle depends on what rpm it idles at.

No need in running an extra quart unless a factory pan...most aftermarket pans are at least 8-9 quart capacity. On my factory 428CJ engines, using factory pans with windage tray, HV pumps, and factory heads, I do run an extra quart and I see oil pressure go up all the way to the top of a dyno pull...no loss at all. But that would be a 5 quart pan with a quart in the filter and an extra quart....so only 7 quarts total. I do like the Accusumps...