Installing a new Canton pan - Do I still need the windage tray???

[lippy]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

...and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.

Rick, so I understand, are you saying there should be 30# idle pressure at the front (before the loss from front-back), or at the back (after the loss from front-back)? Thanks.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

mjhcobra There have been some questionable testing done. On certain motor windage trays really help. In other cases no. Hemi's and FE motors have long side walls where the crank shaft spins and depending on what you are doing with the car, the crank will not whip up the oil like other motors. I do know this that solid lifter and solid rollers need all the oil spray they can get. This is the contact point between the bottom of a flat tappet or roller and camshaft contact spot. New solid lifters, (non roller) now have small holes of .010"-.015" for oiling of the contact location. This extends the life of both surfaces. I used to run solids in other motors and 10-15K miles and the wear was showing and the camshaft had wear issues. We also ran a higher valve lash above spec. This also increases wear at idle. If you are running a canton diamond windage tray, it works more like a scraper and I use this. SIDE note, make sure you can rotate the crank shaft 360 degrees and not hit the windage tray. Mine did and had to be modified. If you are running a roller lifter you can cheat the control of oil spray, flat tappets,I wouldn't. Stroker motor would need to be checked too.
1/4" to 3/8" clearance for pickup is good. I also tack weld the tube to the oil pump. It's a safety issue to protect a $10,000 motor. If you are going to race, pull the oil pump and safety wire the 4 bolts on the bottom of the pump. Also Over fill the motor 1quart of oil. This stops any starvation of the oil getting back to the pan. The oil returns are slow in and FE motor and this helps. It may leak from the rear main seal or may not. Also make sure your dipstick is reading the correct oil level.
Do you have any oiling modes done to the motor?? Mostly the adding of limiters to the heads for the rocker oiling and valve spring cooling. I know some of the guys are running a .060" oriface in both heads. I use a .080" to be safe. It fills the heads with oil and helps cool the valve springs and rockers. Easy way is to add allen screw into the supply hole in the head, tap head, drill hole in middle of screw and inset. Make sure it clears the bolt for the shafts and use the correct bolt or stud for the supply hole.
What oil pump are you running. I would reccomend an HVHP pump with a min of 60# spring. I like 80# better. I race and use #100 psi spring. 15 years of racing and no failures to bottom end of motor. IMO the most important thing is not let the motor idle for long and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.
Side notes, if you are running an oiler cooler, add an accusump to the motor. You can use it as both a preoiler before starting the motor,( 85% of motor wear happens on starting a motor and waiting for oil pressure to build ) and if running high "G" turns help maintain oil pressure when the oil is slow to return to the oil pan. This is also the reason for running 1 quart over full. You can use a manual valve or go electrical. Good luck. Rick L.

All of this is very relative, depending on the application, type of racing, what parts are being used, etc. There are no absolutes for anything.

The amount of oil to the top of the engine will depend on how the rockers are oiled and what lifters are used. Most of your FE race setups are now pushrod oiled. To go along with that, most of your good solid roller lifters are beyond edge orifice oiling, meaning that they won't pass a lot of oil up to the valvetrain unless modified. If the engine is going in a street car or a road race engine, I will take a Dremel and connect the orifice to the band with a small channel so that they will pass more oil. On drag race engines or street/strip deals, I will leave them alone. You'd be surprised at how much oil gets to the top, even without any modification.

With the bushed lifters, I wouldn't mind for the engine to idle all day long. I tell my customers to idle the engines at around 1200. With pressure fed bushed lifters, the life is much longer than the lifters from 10 years ago.

On engines that feed through the head, I use a .070" restrictor in the head.

You do not need a ton of oil pressure, even racing. I can show you some pictures of some Cleveland rod bearings that went through a season of being drag raced every weekend, with 130 degree water temp, leaving at 5500 and shifting at sometimes 7600 rpm....with a .0025" rod bearing clearance. The engine showed 50 pounds of oil pressure at the rear....probably about 60-65 at the front. The bearings still had my bore mic marks in them.

I like to safety wire the 4 bolts on the pump as well. Actually, I buy them from Doug Garifo, and they are already safety wired and everything is moly coated. As for the pickup, if it's not a Cleveland or a Chevy, 2 bolts with lock washers and Loctite is more than sufficient. WOT oil pressure at 7000-7500 is usually no more than 80 psi tops. The pressure at idle depends on what rpm it idles at.

No need in running an extra quart unless a factory pan...most aftermarket pans are at least 8-9 quart capacity. On my factory 428CJ engines, using factory pans with windage tray, HV pumps, and factory heads, I do run an extra quart and I see oil pressure go up all the way to the top of a dyno pull...no loss at all. But that would be a 5 quart pan with a quart in the filter and an extra quart....so only 7 quarts total. I do like the Accusumps...

[mjhcobra]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

mjhcobra I think we talked and your name was MIke?? Go with the ford tray. Drill some 1/4 holes in the center to help the oil return faster. Hydro lifters are great. I agree with a ford motor in a cobra over others.
For the lines for the oil cooler one goes up the l/s frame and the other loops over in the raditor opening and parrells the other back to the oil housing. Watch out for rubbing of the lines. Use clamps with rubber insolators and screw them to the frame. I think ERA will show you a picture of the lines being routed.
If you call Melling they can tell you what spring is in the oil pump.
What oil are you looking to run? 10-30, 10-40, 15-40, The thicker oil will help keep the psi level up. I also add 1 quart of lucas oil suppliment to the oil. This should be done with the motor running and oil is warm to mix it. Pour it in slow. It has a cligging compound in it. This help prevent dry starts and stops the oil from coming off the metal parts if the motor sits for a week. It will cost a couple of HP but if it help saves a $10,000.00 + motor who cares. Rick L. Ps not 100% sure but I think the HV oil pump comes with a #50 pound spring. The HVHP comes with a 60# spring. You can add a washer behind the spring to get the 60 number. Pull the spring out of the pump and install the washer, reinstall the plug and safety wire it so the plug can't come out or get loose.

You are close Rick, it is Martin. I run a 10w-30 weight oil. I went to the Mellings site and they list a HV and an HP, but not a HVHP. Could not find any data on the springs. I am using the Ford tray so I will add a few holes.
Any ideas on how to secure the oil cooler to the body?

[RICK LAKE]

lippy Yes, a min of 30# on the gauge. You will have only about 10-15 psi oil pressure at the rear rods and rear main crank shaft bearing un less it's a side oiler. Most of the FE motors I have seen damaged or broken have burnt rod bearings in the 3,4,7,8 area. They are the last to get oil in a center oil block. We can talk ideas and theory until the sun rises. I don't get paided to build motors here on the FE forums or CC. I have built my own motors. Shelby blocks are NOT, repeat NOT FE blocks They are more like 417 Donovan blocks. I have worked on them along time ago. This is what I know, FE motors have poor oiling systems, small narrow rod bearings, heavy rods and crankshafts. I know guys who ran hemi crankshafts and rods in FE blocks. This was 1/4 mile racing in the 70's. The motors lasted.
I have heard and been told by a couple of people on the forum and other forums that an FE motor needs only 10 psi to float the rods and crankshaft. Alot of this depends on the clearances of the motor. Some guys run the old numbers .003" of the crankshaft and rods. Some guys run the .0025" for both. The newer thing is running around .002" on rods and main bearings. I run a little less, .00185-.0019" Here's the thing, this is a stroker kit with BBC rods and bearings. These bearing are wider than FE. The rods are also less weight than FE rods, Think they where about 30-45 grams less. That's alot less weight to be throughing around at 6,000 rpms. The liter the better. IF you look at some of the engine master motor from a couple of years ago, alot of guys where running a 2.2 rod and now we are at honda rods of 1.88" and still making silly power.
Here's the thing, I have built 3 FE motors in the last 15 years and working on #4 my last for my cobra. I have talked to some of the master engine builders from the 60-70's. They all say about the same thing of racing an FE motor. Alot of oil and oil pressure. I have been told that high oil pressure errodes bearing and prewears them out. I have 7 years of abuse on 452 motor, stock case 428 crankshaft. NO prebearing wear on either rod or crankshaft bearings. spec clearance was .0025 rods, and .0022 mains. This is with the 100# spring and 15-40 oil. Cold start I am hitting between 125-128psi and let the motor warn up by itself. Takes about 3 minute to get temp in oil up to 140F and coolant at 180F. The one down side is the hard wear the gears on the camshaft and distributor gear take. I have the end play on the camshaft at .005". I also have a .015" pin hole in the allen screw behind this area to spray oil on the 2 gears and extend the life of both. I don't rely on spray or splash. The 484 motor is tighter, run the same oil pump and pressures. Hard abuse, no damage to bottom end, no failures. My 498 motor with be about the same with about 650ft of torque and 580hp. That's the limit of my drivetrain and nerves.
I don't have 20G to blow around and destroy motors. I give up 20-40 hp for torque. Running my motors at a lower rpm, using a 6 spd trans and running a 3.31 reaend ratio gives me the best of both worlds. I also have a 5 spd for small autocross tracks with long 2nd gear it stays in through out the drive. Each builder has their own theories of how to keep and FE alive. These are mine and provin to work.
I agree with Brent B about not idling a FE solid camshaft motor under 1,200 rpms. This gives more spray and splash to help keep wet the rotating parts. The only different is with a hydro camshaft motor and I started with flat tappets I could and do idle at 750 rpms all day and don't worry about lack of oil. Roller camshaft now, the same applies. Little side note on this, I run soft springs on the heads, beehive 26120 BBC springs. They help limit my motor to 5,600 rpms with valve float starts. I have worked out that by having only a .015" compression of the lifter plunger at normal running and when the lifters pump up like solids I don't have the massive falloff of power from the valves being held open. Old race trick. Max rpm is 6,200. Good luck with your motor. Last side note, The oil pump drive shaft, get a harden one. The pins in the bottom of your distributor, if you run an MSD, go the next size up on the pins for more strenght. There is a thread on this and what size the pins are. I don't have the number off the top of my head. I am a GM master tech by trade and have better than 40+ years of playing with motors. I love the odd ball ones, Hemi's, ( the old sytle ) Cammer motors, ( just cost too much to build) and AMC, the ugly duckling. Rick Lake student of motors,not master.

[blykins]

Rick, I appreciate all your dialogue and thoughts, but I will tell you that a lot has changed since the 60's and 70's.... :-). Stay warm up there.

[DougD]

One suggestion - test your Canton pan for leaks before bolting it on. I personally know of three Canton steel pans that had leaky welds when new. You don't find out until it's on and running, and you have an annoying seep through one of their crappy welds. Don't say I didn't warn you......

[RICK LAKE]

Bylkins Brent it's snowing. You are right about what went on in the late 60's- mid 70's. Again correct on what the motor is built for. Clearances have changed with pi$$ poor oil to lube a motor now. If you go with one of the some special companies that make different blends of oil, like Joe Gibbs you can get away with alot more.
I look at it this way, a ford FE block needs some work to help the oiling system unless its an Sideoiler. There have been a couple of articles about enlarging the main channel in the block from 3/8" to 1/2". Limiters in the heads, You are in the middle for size between .060" and .080". I have seen a couple of motors running .060" that the pushrod tips and cups on the rockers blued. The rocker where not top of the line like Sharp, T&D, Erson, Jesel. I think you can figure out who is left.
FE motor is about 55 years old. The bore and stroke have been maxed out to 4.400" and stroker of 4.375 with a small camshaft. The aftermarket blocks can go a little bigger. hear there's a guy trying something in the 600 cube range with a tall deck block setup. Biggest problem except for oiling is the heads. Have not checked in on the lastest new heads from Bear but hearing intake flow in the real low 400cfms. That's nice. Down side new heads from other manufactures are pushing in the 420-over 500cfm on intake. Power is all in the heads and bore spacing. We run out of room for bigger valves over 2.25" intake and 1.75 exhaust. The port design is poor. IMO Way too much dead air in the bottom of the port and top. The magic of port to valve size is in the 85-87% range for max unless this has changed with the new larger back cuts of the valve and 5 angle seats. Here's the 64 thousand dollar question, what's better swirl heads or straight drop in flow heads?? See bear is using heart shape combustion chambers.
new trick that is been out for a while is oiling the thrust bearing to keep the crankshaft in the middle of the thrust when running. little .015" TO .017" hole. This helps soften the crankshaft from banging the thrust bearing when loading and unloading the drivetrain.
You are one of the few builder who take the time and ask the owner what you want out of a motor and what you(owner) is going to do with the motor. Most people IMO don't understand that torque moves the car, not HP from idle to 5,500 rpms where HP takes over. Big problem with cobras are they are a flying barn door. I learned real fast that a paxton hood on my car caused liftoff at 138 mph on the front wheels. This was with a 1/2" drop of front to back on long flat area. 2705 pound and I need clearance to take off.
You Barry R., George A, Jay B., Joe B, ( fresno ) Kuntz, KCR all Build some solid strong motors. they are all a little different in ideas and specs but get the job done. I like old school and due to age and stiff neck will stay there. My motors are not the most powerful in HP but run for years with 95% abuse time on them and no failures of the block assembly. I do have 2 failures of the shelby heads with helicoils ripping out of the heads. Have gone to all timeserts and no more failures. New things and ideas come up everyday with a better way to get longer life and more power from this motor. Bottom line is, it's reached just about the limit for it without poweradders. The sad thing is 351block motors are street driving and producing in the 750+ hp and 600+ft of torque and go to 7,800 rpms all day long. An FE will get stress out to the limits to even some close. I know Kuntz has FE's in the 900hp range now and tricks out the back door. These are short term motors not street or every day drivers. Going to stop here, Promised to stop getting on soap box. I know this with aftermarket blocks that are entered oiled, until I break one or burnt one up, or show signs of bearing wear from high oil pressures I will stay with this setup. Have a external wetsump setup from dove. Will add this to the 498 motor or go avivad system. For me the 70-80's are still here and running just fine with basic 15-40 oil. Have a good day Brent.

[blykins]

I have seen some "tricks" by the older engine builders from the 60's-70's. They are the ones with 5/8" holes between the mains and cam bearings with Holley jets threaded into them....or hogged out passages from the pump, etc. There were a lot of things that they tried back then, but they have since been proven as wasteful or downright wrong.

There are no inline valve FE heads that flow 400's....BBM included. I've been working on a set of BBM's for a personal project that are flowing around 340-350. Keith Craft's Stage 3 Edelbrocks hit around 380, but that's the most I've seen. I used a set on Mr. Brown's 496. I've also got a set of hand ported Tunnel Port heads here that flow in the 370's. Most of the "good" aftermarket heads have the heart shaped chambers as you say.

If you're ever willing to give it a shot, a hot oil pressure at WOT in some of my race stuff is about 75-80 psi. Main bearing clearances are usually around .0017-.0018 on aluminum blocks, a little tighter if I use coated bearings. Rod bearings are usually around the .0025" mark with BBC rods. Of course I measure my cranks and have them ground if they're out of round or tapered by any more than a few tenths. Just remember that high oil pressure costs horsepower and causes heat. Where do you draw the line? If 100-120 is good, is 150 ok too?

Stay warm man, I think we're all gonna get dumped on. Tomorrow is high 15.....

[blykins]

Hard to see because of the glare of the light off the oil on the bearing, but you can see the bore mic marks on the bearing where I set the clearances up 3 years ago. This was in a 351C, which usually has a bad reputation for oiling the rods with high rpms. This engine was in the car for a year of limited street driving, then a season of bracket racing, launching at 5500 with wrinkle wall slicks, shifting at 7600 at times. Oil pressure was 50-55 psi measured at the rear of the block. This was a #8 rod bearing.

Of course an S/O FE is a better design than the Cleveland block, as the S/O will oil the mains and rods first, then get oil up top. The Cleveland pulls oil from the pump and can oil the lifters first. Most people will tell you that you absolutely need lifter bore bushings, they need to be restricted, blah, blah, blah, but there were no bushings in this engine...just correctly sized bores/lifters.

I would have reused all the bearings, but he's wanting a new engine built and we'll probably go with 2" rod journals instead of the 2.100".

[Bernica]

5 Stars on that one Brent! You definitely hit the right setup!

[RICK LAKE]

Bylkins Brent I have a set of Edelbrock heads with a ton of work that flow 386 intake and 368 exhaust. They have been welded, sparkplug hole moved, .200" height on the intake ports, about the same to the exhaust of weld and fill. Valves are 11/32 at 2.25 and 11/32 at 1.75. The floors are filled in half way to the valves. Have had the heads on 2 different flow machines and both come within 1% of these numbers. The ports are based on KCR stage 3 programmed. Looking at going to 5/16 or 8MM valves for a little more flow and a different back cut for a little more flow under the .400" lift. Have to have my intake welded and raise the intake ports also.
My understanding is that Blue thunder heads with again alot of work where flowing at 400cfm or was this just a story??
Cleve motors, oiling system needed a ton of work. Glidden and Gapp both had the answers for this motor with oil control. They also turned between 8,900 rpms and 9,400 rpms. They ran 5 weight oil and got about 25 runs before teardown. You have also learned about oil control for this motor. I never hated this motor until Gliddened cleaned house in prostock with the Fairmont. Covered the field by .1-.3 tenths of a second. the rest was clutch setup. He had and his son still used a concrete launch behind the shop. Billy still will get your car in the 60 ft time of .2-.5 tenths faster with adjustments. Cleveland head and port could flow a ton but sucked at idle to about .300" lift then away you go to .700"+. Only maintainance I saw from Sr. Glidden was a valve spring swap at E town and clutch adjustments. Motor was never apart. He did carry spare bullets.
Going to 2.0 rods is great, less rotating weight, lighter crankshaft. Rock and roll.
I have not on purpose tryed to run a motor at 150 psi and would have no reason to do so. I do know that fram filter blow apart in the high 130's. This was on another motor.
Lossing HP with thicker oil, yes 100% correct. Again if I was looking for every last hp would build a motor to turn 7,500 rpms, run .904" solid roller lifters and about 650 pound valve springs and have a motor with a short life. Oil would be 0 weight or a 5 weight. I didn't like turning hemi's this hard and don't like turning and FE motor this hard either. I have a heart and after spending about 80-100 hours building a motor, I am not out to destroy it on breakin.
I think you missed the part about the oil pressures being in the 120's on cold startup only. Like you I run a 70-85 psi at 5,800 rpms. The lifters are pumped up and have a small fall off of power but still pulling. My rod bearing look just like yours you showed. We are both on the same track. Side note, stop stabbing your finger with a pick.. Thanks for the weather report.
Going to woodward cruise this year in Aug, have a week off, may stop by and scray the ---- out of you.
Lifter bushing can go either way. Correct angle to ride on the camshaft. Having the lifter bores centered to aline with the rocker arm. Correct spec of clearance for max lube or to control oil to the lifter depending on what style, solid or roller. My shelby block has bronze sleeves in them with hydro roller.
Last note, I find it hard to believe that my heads are 8years old and flow about the same as the latest designs. My combustion chambers are not heart shape either. Recommended compression is 11.50 to 1 with a small wedge dome I am waiting for Jay B to give a call with the PSE lower intake manifold. I am looking at running a rev kit and run lighter valve springs on the valves. Isky had a kit about 45 years ago, but it was ugly.
Last thing you said you have 55 psi at the back of the block, and my brain is fuzzy where is the port for the gauge compared to the inlet of the block? If the inlet is at the other end you are running about 70 psi. We are at the same numbers. Tunnel ports IMO are a poor design with the air deflector for around the pushrod. I think a good set of HR heads are only couple of cfm's behind tunnels. Not 100% sure, need more research on this. Hey got to go, Good info. Rick L. PS I am the lucky one and only build for myself. You have to answer to some people who don't take care about there motors and over abuse. This is 1 main reason I couldn't ever build motors for a living. the first bang off the rev limiter and I am looking for a torque wrench to swing. Selling your childen is the other problem. I figure you loss about 1/4 pint of blood on each motor from edges. I now grind all surface edges smooth, saves fingers and cuts. Later Rick

[blykins]

I've slammed a couple fingers in car doors....plus have to bite on a lot of them because of some of my customers.....

Clevelands have two oil pressure ports. One at the rear of the block at the very tail end of the oiling path, and one at the front near the pump. There is between 10-15 psi difference between the two ports. Tried a couple different oils, pressure was around 60-65 psi if I remember right at the front of the engine. Bottom line is that you don't need a ton of oil pressure to make an engine live.

My high effort FE heads run 5/16" valves. Not really a great difference in flow, but a good weight savings.

HR heads move some air, but I've never seen them touch the TP heads. These TP heads were hand ported, but the CSA was closed up quite a bit. They are groundhog-hole-ports now, not tunnel ports.

And yes, higher oil pressure (not just higher viscosity) will lose hp....

We gotta teach you how to double tap that enter key between thoughts Rick.

[Bernica]

I have some pretty tricked up Shelby heads (so I think) that flow at around 330 cfm intake and 240 cfm exhaust. I don't think I have seen 400 numbers before. Just sayin'

[blykins]

It takes a lot of port volume and a big engine to take advantage of it.

Said TP heads....

[Bernica]

Yup, you filled the floors. Nice! You should stuff a tennis ball in one so folks can see just how big those ports are!

[blykins]

Gained 40 cfm and reduced CSA as well.....

[RICK LAKE]

Bylkins Nice port job, can drop a tennis ball in that hole. Now show and tell about the dark side, You know the one with the deflector. We both know that's the bottle neck on these combos.
Would like to see a flow video of how bad air turbulents is on the back side of the deflector. He both know air doesn't like to bent. Also know the faster the air flow the more turbulent is close to the valves in the head.
See we both like a layed down "D" port. I did have ideas about if small ribbing in the port would help deflect the air better behind the pushrod deflector. The Idea of smooth porting and polishing against rough CNC grooves left in the ports. I know on the floor where there is dead air catching fuel droplets is a plus and fuel heats and goes back to a gasous form and is sucked in on the next valve operation.
Last Note, Is there a way to FI this motor with a dry intake manifold. More cfms, air is lighter than combo with fuel. More flow should be the final outcome. Direct injection would be the real winner. Back to work. Thanks for the snow and 5+ degrees. going to get up to 22f+.
Cost too much but cammer head motor is the way to go. Little work on the short radius and that's it. Hey, have a good day. Rick l. Ps would you be going to Goodwood cruise in Aug??

[blykins]

I can't take credit for it, Lawes Mayfield did the port work. There are a few bottlenecks in a TP port...the sheer size of it can be one. The pushrod tubes going down through the intake ports can be another. These don't have many bottlenecks now though....

A tidbit of info is that a smooth port isn't always a good thing. A rough CNC finish or even dimples in the port can work wonders. Think of a golf ball... Sometimes it makes more horsepower, sometimes it doesn't make more horsepower, but makes the engine more efficient, to the point where you can pull fuel out to hit the A/F ratio target.

Got up this morning and it's 1 degree here. Global warming?

[Bobcat]

Brent ... since this thread has already drifted .... go to Speedtalk and look up the thread "Why an engine makes more power off a burr finish" .... all 58 pages , back on 11/20/14 . Lots of good info , photos and hard test data .
Makes for good reading when it`s 1 degree out there .... 17 here in SC .

Bob