Installing a new Canton pan - Do I still need the windage tray???

[mjhcobra]

My Engine is out and hanging from a hoist so access is pretty good. I may put a few studs in just to help the alignment. I will check the rear main drain. I put this motor together a long time ago and forgot about the drain.
No problems with bolts before so I should be good this time around.
Thanks for the tips.

[RICK LAKE]

mjhcobra There have been some questionable testing done. On certain motor windage trays really help. In other cases no. Hemi's and FE motors have long side walls where the crank shaft spins and depending on what you are doing with the car, the crank will not whip up the oil like other motors. I do know this that solid lifter and solid rollers need all the oil spray they can get. This is the contact point between the bottom of a flat tappet or roller and camshaft contact spot. New solid lifters, (non roller) now have small holes of .010"-.015" for oiling of the contact location. This extends the life of both surfaces. I used to run solids in other motors and 10-15K miles and the wear was showing and the camshaft had wear issues. We also ran a higher valve lash above spec. This also increases wear at idle. If you are running a canton diamond windage tray, it works more like a scraper and I use this. SIDE note, make sure you can rotate the crank shaft 360 degrees and not hit the windage tray. Mine did and had to be modified. If you are running a roller lifter you can cheat the control of oil spray, flat tappets,I wouldn't. Stroker motor would need to be checked too.
1/4" to 3/8" clearance for pickup is good. I also tack weld the tube to the oil pump. It's a safety issue to protect a $10,000 motor. If you are going to race, pull the oil pump and safety wire the 4 bolts on the bottom of the pump. Also Over fill the motor 1quart of oil. This stops any starvation of the oil getting back to the pan. The oil returns are slow in and FE motor and this helps. It may leak from the rear main seal or may not. Also make sure your dipstick is reading the correct oil level.
Do you have any oiling modes done to the motor?? Mostly the adding of limiters to the heads for the rocker oiling and valve spring cooling. I know some of the guys are running a .060" oriface in both heads. I use a .080" to be safe. It fills the heads with oil and helps cool the valve springs and rockers. Easy way is to add allen screw into the supply hole in the head, tap head, drill hole in middle of screw and inset. Make sure it clears the bolt for the shafts and use the correct bolt or stud for the supply hole.
What oil pump are you running. I would reccomend an HVHP pump with a min of 60# spring. I like 80# better. I race and use #100 psi spring. 15 years of racing and no failures to bottom end of motor. IMO the most important thing is not let the motor idle for long and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.
Side notes, if you are running an oiler cooler, add an accusump to the motor. You can use it as both a preoiler before starting the motor,( 85% of motor wear happens on starting a motor and waiting for oil pressure to build ) and if running high "G" turns help maintain oil pressure when the oil is slow to return to the oil pan. This is also the reason for running 1 quart over full. You can use a manual valve or go electrical. Good luck. Rick L.

[Bernica]

There is a lot of info about this and the guys responding are as good as it gets.
I also ran across this that may help. Good luck with the build

Ford FE Engine Oiling System: The Complete Guide

[mjhcobra]

Rick,
While the engine is out I installed a Mellings M57HV high volume oil pump, which replaced the stock Mellings pump. My Cobra will probably not see any track or strip time-just some normal fun on the roads. It is a stock P.I. engine with the CJ cam and hydraulic lifters. No screamer, just fun to drive. I had to have an FE in my Cobra or to me, it would not be a Cobra. I have no idea which spring is in the new Mellings pump and I am not sure how to figure it out.
The windage tray worked fine with the stock pan for clearances, so it will be fine with the Canton. The purpose of the new 7 qt. Canton pan was to add oil to help starvation. From what I read it is actually an 8 qt. pan if you count the filter (Canton 15-820). One of the next things on the list is to add the oil cooler, which I guess means more total oil. I am trying to figure out how to mount the oil cooler and build a shroud for it as well as do the plumbing correctly. Currently all I have it the remote filter in use.
Thanks again for all help.
Martin

[RICK LAKE]

mjhcobra I think we talked and your name was MIke?? Go with the ford tray. Drill some 1/4 holes in the center to help the oil return faster. Hydro lifters are great. I agree with a ford motor in a cobra over others.
For the lines for the oil cooler one goes up the l/s frame and the other loops over in the raditor opening and parrells the other back to the oil housing. Watch out for rubbing of the lines. Use clamps with rubber insolators and screw them to the frame. I think ERA will show you a picture of the lines being routed.
If you call Melling they can tell you what spring is in the oil pump.
What oil are you looking to run? 10-30, 10-40, 15-40, The thicker oil will help keep the psi level up. I also add 1 quart of lucas oil suppliment to the oil. This should be done with the motor running and oil is warm to mix it. Pour it in slow. It has a cligging compound in it. This help prevent dry starts and stops the oil from coming off the metal parts if the motor sits for a week. It will cost a couple of HP but if it help saves a $10,000.00 + motor who cares. Rick L. Ps not 100% sure but I think the HV oil pump comes with a #50 pound spring. The HVHP comes with a 60# spring. You can add a washer behind the spring to get the 60 number. Pull the spring out of the pump and install the washer, reinstall the plug and safety wire it so the plug can't come out or get loose.

[mjhcobra]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

mjhcobra I think we talked and your name was MIke?? Go with the ford tray. Drill some 1/4 holes in the center to help the oil return faster. Hydro lifters are great. I agree with a ford motor in a cobra over others.
For the lines for the oil cooler one goes up the l/s frame and the other loops over in the raditor opening and parrells the other back to the oil housing. Watch out for rubbing of the lines. Use clamps with rubber insolators and screw them to the frame. I think ERA will show you a picture of the lines being routed.
If you call Melling they can tell you what spring is in the oil pump.
What oil are you looking to run? 10-30, 10-40, 15-40, The thicker oil will help keep the psi level up. I also add 1 quart of lucas oil suppliment to the oil. This should be done with the motor running and oil is warm to mix it. Pour it in slow. It has a cligging compound in it. This help prevent dry starts and stops the oil from coming off the metal parts if the motor sits for a week. It will cost a couple of HP but if it help saves a $10,000.00 + motor who cares. Rick L. Ps not 100% sure but I think the HV oil pump comes with a #50 pound spring. The HVHP comes with a 60# spring. You can add a washer behind the spring to get the 60 number. Pull the spring out of the pump and install the washer, reinstall the plug and safety wire it so the plug can't come out or get loose.

You are close Rick, it is Martin. I run a 10w-30 weight oil. I went to the Mellings site and they list a HV and an HP, but not a HVHP. Could not find any data on the springs. I am using the Ford tray so I will add a few holes.
Any ideas on how to secure the oil cooler to the body?

[RICK LAKE]

lippy Yes, a min of 30# on the gauge. You will have only about 10-15 psi oil pressure at the rear rods and rear main crank shaft bearing un less it's a side oiler. Most of the FE motors I have seen damaged or broken have burnt rod bearings in the 3,4,7,8 area. They are the last to get oil in a center oil block. We can talk ideas and theory until the sun rises. I don't get paided to build motors here on the FE forums or CC. I have built my own motors. Shelby blocks are NOT, repeat NOT FE blocks They are more like 417 Donovan blocks. I have worked on them along time ago. This is what I know, FE motors have poor oiling systems, small narrow rod bearings, heavy rods and crankshafts. I know guys who ran hemi crankshafts and rods in FE blocks. This was 1/4 mile racing in the 70's. The motors lasted.
I have heard and been told by a couple of people on the forum and other forums that an FE motor needs only 10 psi to float the rods and crankshaft. Alot of this depends on the clearances of the motor. Some guys run the old numbers .003" of the crankshaft and rods. Some guys run the .0025" for both. The newer thing is running around .002" on rods and main bearings. I run a little less, .00185-.0019" Here's the thing, this is a stroker kit with BBC rods and bearings. These bearing are wider than FE. The rods are also less weight than FE rods, Think they where about 30-45 grams less. That's alot less weight to be throughing around at 6,000 rpms. The liter the better. IF you look at some of the engine master motor from a couple of years ago, alot of guys where running a 2.2 rod and now we are at honda rods of 1.88" and still making silly power.
Here's the thing, I have built 3 FE motors in the last 15 years and working on #4 my last for my cobra. I have talked to some of the master engine builders from the 60-70's. They all say about the same thing of racing an FE motor. Alot of oil and oil pressure. I have been told that high oil pressure errodes bearing and prewears them out. I have 7 years of abuse on 452 motor, stock case 428 crankshaft. NO prebearing wear on either rod or crankshaft bearings. spec clearance was .0025 rods, and .0022 mains. This is with the 100# spring and 15-40 oil. Cold start I am hitting between 125-128psi and let the motor warn up by itself. Takes about 3 minute to get temp in oil up to 140F and coolant at 180F. The one down side is the hard wear the gears on the camshaft and distributor gear take. I have the end play on the camshaft at .005". I also have a .015" pin hole in the allen screw behind this area to spray oil on the 2 gears and extend the life of both. I don't rely on spray or splash. The 484 motor is tighter, run the same oil pump and pressures. Hard abuse, no damage to bottom end, no failures. My 498 motor with be about the same with about 650ft of torque and 580hp. That's the limit of my drivetrain and nerves.
I don't have 20G to blow around and destroy motors. I give up 20-40 hp for torque. Running my motors at a lower rpm, using a 6 spd trans and running a 3.31 reaend ratio gives me the best of both worlds. I also have a 5 spd for small autocross tracks with long 2nd gear it stays in through out the drive. Each builder has their own theories of how to keep and FE alive. These are mine and provin to work.
I agree with Brent B about not idling a FE solid camshaft motor under 1,200 rpms. This gives more spray and splash to help keep wet the rotating parts. The only different is with a hydro camshaft motor and I started with flat tappets I could and do idle at 750 rpms all day and don't worry about lack of oil. Roller camshaft now, the same applies. Little side note on this, I run soft springs on the heads, beehive 26120 BBC springs. They help limit my motor to 5,600 rpms with valve float starts. I have worked out that by having only a .015" compression of the lifter plunger at normal running and when the lifters pump up like solids I don't have the massive falloff of power from the valves being held open. Old race trick. Max rpm is 6,200. Good luck with your motor. Last side note, The oil pump drive shaft, get a harden one. The pins in the bottom of your distributor, if you run an MSD, go the next size up on the pins for more strenght. There is a thread on this and what size the pins are. I don't have the number off the top of my head. I am a GM master tech by trade and have better than 40+ years of playing with motors. I love the odd ball ones, Hemi's, ( the old sytle ) Cammer motors, ( just cost too much to build) and AMC, the ugly duckling. Rick Lake student of motors,not master.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

...and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.

Rick, so I understand, are you saying there should be 30# idle pressure at the front (before the loss from front-back), or at the back (after the loss from front-back)? Thanks.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

mjhcobra There have been some questionable testing done. On certain motor windage trays really help. In other cases no. Hemi's and FE motors have long side walls where the crank shaft spins and depending on what you are doing with the car, the crank will not whip up the oil like other motors. I do know this that solid lifter and solid rollers need all the oil spray they can get. This is the contact point between the bottom of a flat tappet or roller and camshaft contact spot. New solid lifters, (non roller) now have small holes of .010"-.015" for oiling of the contact location. This extends the life of both surfaces. I used to run solids in other motors and 10-15K miles and the wear was showing and the camshaft had wear issues. We also ran a higher valve lash above spec. This also increases wear at idle. If you are running a canton diamond windage tray, it works more like a scraper and I use this. SIDE note, make sure you can rotate the crank shaft 360 degrees and not hit the windage tray. Mine did and had to be modified. If you are running a roller lifter you can cheat the control of oil spray, flat tappets,I wouldn't. Stroker motor would need to be checked too.
1/4" to 3/8" clearance for pickup is good. I also tack weld the tube to the oil pump. It's a safety issue to protect a $10,000 motor. If you are going to race, pull the oil pump and safety wire the 4 bolts on the bottom of the pump. Also Over fill the motor 1quart of oil. This stops any starvation of the oil getting back to the pan. The oil returns are slow in and FE motor and this helps. It may leak from the rear main seal or may not. Also make sure your dipstick is reading the correct oil level.
Do you have any oiling modes done to the motor?? Mostly the adding of limiters to the heads for the rocker oiling and valve spring cooling. I know some of the guys are running a .060" oriface in both heads. I use a .080" to be safe. It fills the heads with oil and helps cool the valve springs and rockers. Easy way is to add allen screw into the supply hole in the head, tap head, drill hole in middle of screw and inset. Make sure it clears the bolt for the shafts and use the correct bolt or stud for the supply hole.
What oil pump are you running. I would reccomend an HVHP pump with a min of 60# spring. I like 80# better. I race and use #100 psi spring. 15 years of racing and no failures to bottom end of motor. IMO the most important thing is not let the motor idle for long and have a min of 30# of pressure at idle. There is a 10-20 psi loss of pressure from the front of the motor to the back of the motor.
Side notes, if you are running an oiler cooler, add an accusump to the motor. You can use it as both a preoiler before starting the motor,( 85% of motor wear happens on starting a motor and waiting for oil pressure to build ) and if running high "G" turns help maintain oil pressure when the oil is slow to return to the oil pan. This is also the reason for running 1 quart over full. You can use a manual valve or go electrical. Good luck. Rick L.

All of this is very relative, depending on the application, type of racing, what parts are being used, etc. There are no absolutes for anything.

The amount of oil to the top of the engine will depend on how the rockers are oiled and what lifters are used. Most of your FE race setups are now pushrod oiled. To go along with that, most of your good solid roller lifters are beyond edge orifice oiling, meaning that they won't pass a lot of oil up to the valvetrain unless modified. If the engine is going in a street car or a road race engine, I will take a Dremel and connect the orifice to the band with a small channel so that they will pass more oil. On drag race engines or street/strip deals, I will leave them alone. You'd be surprised at how much oil gets to the top, even without any modification.

With the bushed lifters, I wouldn't mind for the engine to idle all day long. I tell my customers to idle the engines at around 1200. With pressure fed bushed lifters, the life is much longer than the lifters from 10 years ago.

On engines that feed through the head, I use a .070" restrictor in the head.

You do not need a ton of oil pressure, even racing. I can show you some pictures of some Cleveland rod bearings that went through a season of being drag raced every weekend, with 130 degree water temp, leaving at 5500 and shifting at sometimes 7600 rpm....with a .0025" rod bearing clearance. The engine showed 50 pounds of oil pressure at the rear....probably about 60-65 at the front. The bearings still had my bore mic marks in them.

I like to safety wire the 4 bolts on the pump as well. Actually, I buy them from Doug Garifo, and they are already safety wired and everything is moly coated. As for the pickup, if it's not a Cleveland or a Chevy, 2 bolts with lock washers and Loctite is more than sufficient. WOT oil pressure at 7000-7500 is usually no more than 80 psi tops. The pressure at idle depends on what rpm it idles at.

No need in running an extra quart unless a factory pan...most aftermarket pans are at least 8-9 quart capacity. On my factory 428CJ engines, using factory pans with windage tray, HV pumps, and factory heads, I do run an extra quart and I see oil pressure go up all the way to the top of a dyno pull...no loss at all. But that would be a 5 quart pan with a quart in the filter and an extra quart....so only 7 quarts total. I do like the Accusumps...