Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[LMH]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Story time

My guess is they were signed by Carroll many, many years ago. This project first started in the late 80's/early 90's with Mike McCluskey. Mike told me Carroll was asking some $250,000 for them in the beginning. Quickly, the project got massive publicity (maybe too much publicity from CARB's point of view).

At the same time, Cobra prices skyrocketed. So, Carroll raised the price (and maybe some of the "story" too) to some $500,000--which was around the price of an S/C at the time. However, at such a high price, Carroll only sold a few and Mike ended up with a ton of parts and a few chassis.

Mike did a fabulous job of reverse engineering most of the parts at that time for the project. I remember walking through row after row after row of parts he made and stored above his paint booth in Torrance. I was gathering up parts to restore original Cobras to pay my way through college.

Side note:
DenBeste now owns most of what's left of those McCluskey parts. Carroll also bought a TON of original Lucas/Girling parts for the project. Shelby ended up with them and Shelby has now transferred what is left to DenBeste. DenBeste and Conway are working together on the project. They are a great team.

Back to the story...20 some years ago...

I was on my way to medical school when I heard about a MiG factory in Poland. As you see, I already knew Mike from original restorations I had done. So, I asked Mike to loan me one of those chassis to reverse engineer so I could make an entire car...Mike didn't know I had already started in Poland at the time. We kept that secret for a long time.

Mike said sure and so I asked him to send the chassis up to us in Utah. He said he didn't want to sent the chassis commercial freight because the chassis is/was extremely fragile (true enough). If you bend one of the body tubes it is a major pain to get everything straight again. He said shipping commercially was too risky.

So, right then and there, I jumped in my truck and drove down to LA. I picked up the chassis and drove it back to Utah. Upon arrival I put it on a truck and air freighted it to Poland to reverse engineer. It was an enormous risk, but I wasn't going to be deterred

Here is a picture of that chassis in Poland. The engineer in the photo has sadly passed away. Staszek taught me an incredible amount about engineering, metallurgy, and manufacturing.

So these are really Continuation Completion cars!
Larry

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by LMH

That surprises me that it would come with an MSO! How do they get CS to sign it I wonder?
Larry

Autopen, read above post...

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

By signing them in advance? This was likely planned well in advance.

Autopen, read above post...

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by LMH

So these are really Continuation Completion cars!
Larry

LiKE I said, "Resumption Cobras" might be the best description.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Autopen, read above post...

Where do you get the autopen other than you are speculating? I assert that David is probably closer and that these were stashed during the initial McCluskey work.

[Dimis]

Sniff, sniff...
No thanks! I'll pass...
I'd rather Larry's cobra!

Fwiw. David I'm glad you enjoy history...

[REAL 1]

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

I can't think of any company better to be involved with this project than Kirkham. They are the modern "AC" based on their relationship with SAI and involvement with restorations. Their work is breathtaking and masterful and in my view their cars deserve to be recognized as second generation genuine Cobras. SAAC agrees. Refer to the Registry. Another builder restorer would be McClusky obviously. HRE Motorcars in Freeport LI is also gaining a great reputation as a respected restorer of originals and builder of Continuation series Cobras and GT40s.

It is clear the Kirkham chassis used in their Cobras and supplied to Shelby are the same as the McClusky chassis for the "completion series" as one was reversed engineered from the other and the other reversed engineered from an original. Clones.

Very simply if the MSO for this new Completion series have original signatures then they had to be signed prior to CS's death. When? Who knows. Self evident. If they are duplicate signatures then auto pen. Obviously.

My concern for this "Completion Cobra" project is that they are really misnamed. They are not true completion or resumption cars or whatever synonym you want to use. Putting aside all the great NOS parts, if it does not have an original chassis but carries an original CSX 3000 vin # it is really an "Air Car" as defined by SAAC. None of these new Completion cars was an original car nor did any parts used for them come from an original car. They are new cars using NOS parts never before used on a prior car.

While my Shelby is finished to a very high level of detail which includes the correct seat tracks and knobs, all correct tags and markings, mirrors, correct seat belts, correct carpet, Rebatt style batteries etc...etc...I don't really know if it has the original grommets for the lines, clips, original tie rods and boots, shifter rings etc....and the other nitty gritty details. I do know that what is there is dimensionally correct. Original NOS stuff would all be neat little details to put in during the build if you were even aware enough to do it.

Another concern is if I am buying one of these cars what proof do I have that the nitty gritty parts like a shifter boot for instance or a tie rod is an original NOS part. New reproduction tie rods, new shifter boots, new shifter rings look identical to the old. How do I know that the clips used, grommets are all original NOS parts? Who represents this? Is it in writing? Is their a list as to what is NOS original and what is not that is given to me? If I need a replacement can I get it? Where and from whom? I know I am paying a lot of extra money for this stuff so who is representing I am getting what I am paying for and where is the list of what is original NOS?

There is no doubt that getting these cars aesthetically correct/historically correct is laborious, difficult, time consuming and expensive. This accounts for the difference in price between some Continuation Cobras and other Continuation Cobras. They are not all equal by any means. If historical/aesthetic accuracy is important to you you will have to pay for it. Some scoffed when I indicated that I have a current detailed build sheet from HRE to reproduce CSX 4206 with its original NASCAR 427 SO and all the details would be in excess of $240,000.00.

I do know that the early CSX continuation cars had a lot of details the current ones don't have and a lot of NOS parts Shelby had were used in early cars but stopped in later production. Early CSX Shlebys had things such as Girling brakes, correct suspension, Smith Gauges, Girling reservoirs (I don't know if they are original or repro), even the dimples on the headlight rings, diff coolers, etc....

These new "Completion" cars undoubtedly will be beautiful and extremely detailed and as it was when the originals were new which is amazing, however, I would never spend that kind of money for a car I couldn't even drive. Why it cannot be driven on the street I do not really understand unless the car is being sold as a complete car and therefore must meet DOT regs and clearly can never do so and therefore cannot be driven.

If I were doing one I would insist the car be completed at a dealer so it could be registered for street use.

If owners of original cars have contempt for Continuation Series cars I can only imagine the bile and up roar from them if SAI starts spitting out "new" CSX 3000 series Cobras and referring to them as "Completion Cars" of the "original series" which they clearly are not regardless of how many NOS original parts you stuff into them. If it ain't got an original chassis it cannot be a "completion" Cobra....of course unless SAI is now re-writing the definition of a "Completion" Cobra which I guess they are. However, not even they can change the facts regardless of their self serving re-write.

I would refer to these cars as what they are, Continuation Cobras and give them a special designation suffix. This way it is not purporting to be anything it is not just like the other Shelby Continuation Cobras.

My 2 cents.

[RodKnock]

Completion, resumption, continuation, whatever. Honestly doesn't matter to me. They could find the exact original metallurgical duplicate of the aluminum body with the actual original-1960's Halibrand magnesium wheels and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me.

They're just a "Tru-er Replica."

[fordracing65]

[quote=twobjshelbys;1348724]Where do you get the autopen other than you are speculating? I assert that David is probably closer and that these were stashed during the initial McCluskey work.[/q..

Gary P told me, he said autopen can be used as an official signature...

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Completion, resumption, continuation, whatever. Honestly doesn't matter to me. They could find the exact original metallurgical duplicate of the aluminum body with the actual original-1960's Halibrand magnesium wheels and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me.

They're just a "Tru-er Replica."

The bait is on the hook!
Larry

[JBo]

Jesus, there truer is one born ever minute.......

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Completion, resumption, continuation, whatever. Honestly doesn't matter to me. They could find the exact original metallurgical duplicate of the aluminum body with the actual original-1960's Halibrand magnesium wheels and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me.

They're just a "Tru-er Replica."

Yes, we know you are the "immovable" object.

[NewYorkGuy]

David,
The picture of the chassis frame looks weird. The steel looks old and rusty. Was that a new frame made by McClusky?

[Mark IV]

Frames, you want frames? We got steenkin' frames!
Ah but where were these and when was it?

[mrmustang]

I think I even know the strange man with the funny limp (from walking into something not in that shot) when he took that picture

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Frames, you want frames? We got steenkin' frames!
Ah but where were these and when was it?

Can I play

[Jamo]

No...so far this is a good thread.

[REAL 1]

[quote=fordracing65;1348749]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Where do you get the autopen other than you are speculating? I assert that David is probably closer and that these were stashed during the initial McCluskey work.[/q..

Gary P told me, he said autopen can be used as an official signature...

Auto Pen is no different than any other "stamped" signature. If the person utilizing the stamp is authorized to stamp the sig its good. My secretary as my signature on a stamp and stamps my signature on letters I approve. Its a good signature.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I think I even know the strange man with the funny limp (from walking into something not in that shot) when he took that picture



Can I play

Bill,

I do limp, but not from that. I took that photo.

If you don't win outright you will get as a parting gift the "Home Edition of the Shelby Frame Game!"

[Three Peaks]

The more I read about this new "venture" of SAI, the more torn I am about how to feel about it. There is no doubt having Kirkham involved in the manufacture of these cars will assure the highest quality of build and ability to work with the customer to option these cares in any way money can buy and I mean that in the most sincere sense.

However, from the OP's original point, unless someone can show absolute proof that these chassis were built in the 63-67 time period by AC, had the CSX stamped numbers, and all the other parts were original parts (including the body), I can't see any way these can be considered "completion" cars in any way related to the original production. Other than the fact that they will have many original parts and be detailed as close to perfection as Kirkham hands can make them, these are no more or less than highly optioned continuation cars that will be overpriced and have speculation surround them for as long as Cobras are being discussed.

For the stratospheric pricing we can assume will be charged for these cars, they will never be "original" cars in the sense of the 60's cars. And the fact they are bastard children probably related to the fiasco Shelby was involved in in the 80's/90's? will instill a cloud over there existence.
The fact also that a third party is building them also takes away from their provenance, IMHO, as something represented as "completion" of the original series should be manufactured by the original manufacturer IMO.

Now, having Kirkham build these cars could be part of the plan and have some advantages. Since Shelby is selling the cars, but only supplying the parts they may have a plausible explanation to sell these cars in the same way as rollers are sold and a third party installs the drivetrain (and other options). This may make it possible to register them for the street which would be a huge advantage since there don't seem to be many race series that are well suited to Cobras these days and the only other use for an off road Cobra is as art or window dressing.

I am curious about a few things since I've scratch built my Cobra and am aware of the "shortcomings" of the original style frames and the Cobra Restorer's drawings which were patterned after the originals (and my chassis also built to these drawings, I assume). Since Kirkham has gone to considerable expense and trouble to build symmetrical chassis and bodies, doesn't that mean some modifications will have to be made to their bodies to fit these frames? Perhaps David could answer this question better? Or would custom bodies be built just to fit these chassis?

This whole discussion is getting more interesting by the day, but still doesn't change the fact this is still the same old song and dance Carrol Shelby has always been known for. With all the discussion surrounding Shelby-Original cars, continuation cars, Anniversary cars, Completion cars, etc.... I guess the old adage applies here- "any press is good press" (paraphrased)

Bob

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Frames, you want frames? We got steenkin' frames!
Ah but where were these and when was it?

Probably not but that looks a lot like Sagebrush (Hi Tech) when they were at the airplane hanger in Casa Grande. Both leaf spring and coil spring frames there. Been there many times but shops tend to look a lot alike on the inside.
Larry