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-   ALL COBRA TALK (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/)
-   -   Why does every thread here devolve into a "Real" vs. "Replica" argument? (http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/all-cobra-talk/134697-why-does-every-thread-here-devolve-into-real-vs-replica-argument.html)

Joe's Garage 09-28-2015 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock (Post 1364766)
Where I disagree, and many others, including Ned as well, is the word "genuine." It's simply is not genuine. "Genuine" implies "original" or "authentic."

The car is being reproduced or recreated by the current incarnation of Shelby American, Inc.
Agree, all of this would have been for not had an accurate description been used. The late CSX cars are genuine Shelby replicas, that is the simple truth and sticking point all along. To say genuine Shelby leaves the unknowing thinking original, as does the REAL 1 plate.

It also doesn't help matters when you put yourself in the same league as the originals, i.e. the "wheat", while all the others are the "chaff".

Joe's Garage 09-28-2015 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue66 (Post 1364758)
CSX car here to. We are so evil :LOL::p
Most of you guys are A-OK in my book :D
I only know of one that needed a spanking, consider CC a group that advocates self-discipline though tough love :LOL:

LMH 09-28-2015 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodKnock (Post 1364766)
Where I disagree, and many others, including Ned as well, is the word "genuine." It's simply is not genuine. "Genuine" implies "original" or "authentic."

The car is being reproduced or recreated by the current incarnation of Shelby American, Inc.
Yeah, I do have an issue with that term too. It blurs the line between original and replica to a point that civilians won't get. I hear ya!
Larry

cycleguy55 09-28-2015 11:27 AM
The way I see it, there are a number of different distinctions we can / should all agree upon:
a) Original: Cobras sold by Shelby from 1962 to 1967 as complete cars, as documented in the SAAC Registry
b) Continuation: CSX1000, CSX4000, CSX6000, CSX7000 and CSX8000 Cobras (complete, roller or 'turnkey minus') manufactured by Shelby American Inc., Shelby Automobiles, Inc. and associated companies.
c) Replica: Any 'Cobra-like' or 'Cobra-type' car not considered an 'Original' or a 'Continuation' Cobra.
d) Shelby: cars (complete, roller or 'turnkey minus') manufactured by Shelby American Inc., Shelby Automobiles, Inc. and associated companies.

These distinctions or categories are not mutually exclusive, and a Cobra may only fit into one category (e.g. ERA or FFR Cobra would be a 'Replica'), or it may fit into multiple categories (e.g. Real1's CSX4206 is a Shelby Continuation Replica).

There may well be a number of other nuances to deal with, but I hope these are the majority of the classifications. Feel free to clarify or contribute to the above.

RodKnock 09-28-2015 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cycleguy55 (Post 1364771)
The way I see it, there are a number of different distinctions we can / should all agree upon:
a) Original: Cobras sold by Shelby from 1962 to 1967 as complete cars, as documented in the SAAC Registry
b) Continuation: CSX1000, CSX4000, CSX6000, CSX7000 and CSX8000 Cobras (complete, roller or 'turnkey minus') manufactured by Shelby American Inc., Shelby Automobiles, Inc. and associated companies.
c) Replica: Any 'Cobra-like' or 'Cobra-type' car not considered an 'Original' or a 'Continuation' Cobra.
d) Shelby: cars (complete, roller or 'turnkey minus') manufactured by Shelby American Inc., Shelby Automobiles, Inc. and associated companies.

These distinctions or categories are not mutually exclusive, and a Cobra may only fit into one category (e.g. ERA or FFR Cobra would be a 'Replica'), or it may fit into multiple categories (e.g. Real1's CSX4206 is a Shelby Continuation Replica).

There may well be a number of other nuances to deal with, but I hope these are the majority of the classifications. Feel free to clarify or contribute to the above.
Nope. There are simply only two categories of Cobras:

1. Original 1960's Shelby and AC Cobras, and
2. Replicas including the Shelby Cobras (1995-present), Kirkhams, ERA's, SPF, BDR, FFR, etc.

jhv48 09-28-2015 02:50 PM
The end!

1ntCobra 09-28-2015 07:37 PM
Sometimes I find it useful to quote myself instead of the SAAC registry. :JEKYLHYDE

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra (Post 1364427)
I was just looking around and found a Cobra coffee mug that I got at Shelby in Vegas years ago. It says "OWN THE REAL THING". Note: the capitalization of letters in that quote is as found on the mug and I am not trying to shout. Hmm, Shelby American is definitely stating that their newfangled Shelby Cobras (continuation, replica or however you like describe them) are REAL Shelby Cobras.

Of course I got that coffee mug at the old original Shelby location in Vegas near the racetrack, not the new less original location closer to the casinos. I am pretty sure that everyone here will agree that my coffee mug bought at the old location is better than any replica mug purchased from the gift shop at the new location regardless of the materials or suppliers used to make any of the newer replica mugs, but that is getting off track a bit.

You know if I went to a car show and my dad asked me if a car he is pointing at is a "real" cobra, I would probably say "no" if that car was not an original cobra from the 1960s. I might also say it is not a "real" cobra because he is probably pointing at a Miata or a Corvette anyway.

Yet my coffee mug, a great source of wisdom and authority from Shelby himself says that his newfangled cobras are "REAL" too. Perhaps this is just a matter of capitalization? Maybe the cars from the 1960s are "real" Shelby Cobras, but the continuations are "REAL" Shelby Cobras. Hmm, no, it cannot be that simple.

So I am going to have to conclude that continuation cobras are both "real" and "not real" at the same time. It is a paradox. A great mystery of the universe.

I also conclude that Joe's Garage, Evan, Thor and friends are all equally right in their thoughts. Further they are all cuddly and lovable and yet extremely annoying at the same time. On no is that another paradox? I just hope that these paradoxes don't cause the universe to start to unravel.
Considering that Shelby American (at least back in the Amy B days) used the slogan "OWN THE REAL THING", it is quite possible that Carroll Shelby himself approved of calling the continuation Cobras, "the real thing". Now that might imply that continuation Cobras are Coke-a-Cola, but more likely I think it might imply that they are likely "real" Shelby Cobras.

Evan,

If Carroll Shelby used the term "real" to describe his continuation Shelby Cobras I think he would be OK with you calling your car "real" too. Why do you need SAAC's approval if the Shelby himself thought it was OK. If the man was OK with "real", I guess I am OK with it too.

Now if you call your car "original" or claim that Carroll personally installed your hood scoop to get the rivet patter just right, I am going to be upset with you. I will be watching to keep you in line...

1ntCobra 09-28-2015 07:49 PM
Authentic, True, Real...

Oh no, I hope Joe's Garage, RodKnock and Thor don't check out this Shelby dealer's website: Interested in Authentic Shelby Cobra Component Cars? or this one Planet Shelby Cobra or well any of the other Shelby dealers for that matter.

1ntCobra 09-28-2015 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra (Post 1364804)
Sometimes I find it useful to quote myself instead of the SAAC registry. :JEKYLHYDE



Considering that Shelby American (at least back in the Amy B days) used the slogan "OWN THE REAL THING", it is quite possible that Carroll Shelby himself approved of calling the continuation Cobras, "the real thing". Now that might imply that continuation Cobras are Coke-a-Cola, but more likely I think it might imply that they are likely "real" Shelby Cobras.

Evan,

If Carroll Shelby used the term "real" to describe his continuation Shelby Cobras I think he would be OK with you calling your car "real" too. Why do you need SAAC's approval if the Shelby himself thought it was OK. If the man was OK with "real", I guess I am OK with it too.

Now if you call your car "original" or claim that Carroll personally installed your hood scoop to get the rivet patter just right, I am going to be upset with you. I will be watching to keep you in line...
I hope my SAAC friends are not paying attention... If you are and want to unfriend me on facebook, remember my real name is, umm, Bill, wait no, ... how about, Vernon, ... ah yeah that's it. ;)

twobjshelbys 09-28-2015 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra (Post 1364804)

If Carroll Shelby used the term "real" to describe his continuation Shelby Cobras I think he would be OK with you calling your car "real" too. Why do you need SAAC's approval if the Shelby himself thought it was OK. If the man was OK with "real", I guess I am OK with it too.

Now if you call your car "original" or claim that Carroll personally installed your hood scoop to get the rivet patter just right, I am going to be upset with you. I will be watching to keep you in line...

The night I bought my Cobra at Barrett Jackson was before the time in the auction when we sold a car with proceeds to the Shelby Foundation. I spoke with Carroll on the phone and we chatted about the donation, etc. Then I told him I'd bought a CSX Cobra a few hours before [thankfully the TV coverage blinked for a commercial and I got to tell my wife on the phone instead of the camera that was shoved in my face]. Carroll was more excited about me getting the CSX4005LA car than the donation. He congratulated me on getting a real cobra, but was more intrigued that it was one of the HST Carbon Fiber cars and said he thought they were some of the best looking ones. I still think the quality of the finish was excellent. That was probably due to the clientele that HST was working with for that group of cars.

Joe's Garage 09-28-2015 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra (Post 1364804)
Sometimes I find it useful to quote myself instead of the SAAC registry. :JEKYLHYDE ...
I prefer to quote Judge Walsh quoting Carroll Shelby -

"... Mr. Shelby identified the replicas of the Cobra 427
S/C with the designation CSX 4000 ..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhv48 (Post 1364781)
The end!

Nedsel 09-28-2015 10:01 PM
It's fun to quote Carroll and try to imagine what he may have meant by certain things he said, but let's also remember he insisted the titles to the 4000-series cars read "1965 Shelby Cobra." When pressed by the DMV about the fact that a 1965 car could clearly not realistically have been built 30 years later, Carroll responded that that was just the "model number" and had nothing to to with the year of the car's manufacture. Uh-huh. He had it all figured out.

1ntCobra 09-29-2015 02:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel (Post 1364833)
It's fun to quote Carroll and try to imagine what he may have meant by certain things he said, but let's also remember he insisted the titles to the 4000-series cars read "1965 Shelby Cobra." When pressed by the DMV about the fact that a 1965 car could clearly not realistically have been built 30 years later, Carroll responded that that was just the "model number" and had nothing to to with the year of the car's manufacture. Uh-huh. He had it all figured out.
I have occasionally heard that Shelby was a Snake Oil Salesman at one time. Now I have seen some of the other stuff he has sold like Pit Stop deodorant come up for sale on eBay on rare occasions, but why is it that I have never seen the Shelby Snake Oil for sale ever? Is it that much rarer than Pit Stop deodorant?

Thor maine 09-29-2015 04:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ntCobra (Post 1364806)
Authentic, True, Real...

Oh no, I hope Joe's Garage, RodKnock and Thor don't check out this Shelby dealer's website: Interested in Authentic Shelby Cobra Component Cars? or this one Planet Shelby Cobra or well any of the other Shelby dealers for that matter.
I always said "it's a real Shelby, a Real Shelby Cobra REPLICA KIT CAR'

Joe's Garage 09-29-2015 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel (Post 1364833)
It's fun to quote Carroll and try to imagine what he may have meant by certain things he said, but let's also remember he insisted the titles to the 4000-series cars read "1965 Shelby Cobra." When pressed by the DMV about the fact that a 1965 car could clearly not realistically have been built 30 years later, Carroll responded that that was just the "model number" and had nothing to to with the year of the car's manufacture. Uh-huh. He had it all figured out.
That's good info and a nice little nugget to share, I don't doubt it for one second. We've all seen a smattering of posts where the vehicle registration of various owners shows '65 Cobra or '66 Cobra, but I don't remember if some showed '65/'66 Shelby Cobra. Seeing how this thread covers many things important besides cobras (watches, tractors, motorcycles, pens etc.), maybe some can post how their replica is registered. I tried a CC search and didn't have much luck, I'm sure there is a thread on this topic.

A question for you Ned, being in a position to possibly know. Did Carroll Shelby provide input into the Registry as it evolved and grew over time? My gut tells me he had to be a contributor in some capacity, but whether he had a say in the structure, vehicle classifications and content is unknown.

trularin 09-29-2015 07:32 AM
Hmmm...

There are some SSSSEEEENNNNSSIIIITTTIIIVVVVEEEE people when it comes to this subject.

Tru

REAL 1 09-29-2015 07:35 AM
My my. You guys are still trying to establish the current production Shelby Cobras are nothing more than mere replica Cobras such as what you own.:LOL: Keep at it, maybe you guys really can change the facts if you try hard enough and inveigh strongly enough.

I'll check back in a few days to see if you guys have progressed any further.:LOL:

trularin 09-29-2015 07:39 AM
Yup - sensitive.

:D

Joe's Garage 09-29-2015 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trularin (Post 1364883)
Yup - sensitive.

:D
Now he's "sniper chicken", shows up, fires off a shot and then runs :LOL:

Joe's Garage 09-29-2015 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue66 (Post 1364886)
OK may as well keep this going. I think "kit" doesn't apply to a lot of cars. Lots of rollers out there now. So I call my CSX4 car a continuation car . It's not a kit. :D
What process did you follow for DMV registration :D


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