Continuation Cobras & SAAC

[REAL 1]

For any of those researching Continuation Cobras and information on these current production Cobras on this site I provide this information from the Shelby American Automobile Club which since 1975 is considered the undisputed authority on the history and legacy of Shelby automobiles.

SAAC
SAAC was founded in 1975. It has approximately 5,000 members in the U.S. and another 500 around the world. When it comes to Cobras and Shelbys, if we don’t know it, it’s probably not worth knowing, While SAAC has continually evolved over the past 32 years, its basic reason for existence has not changed. The club is dedicated to the preservation, care, history and enjoyment of the World Championship Cars built by Carroll Shelby. The difference is that some of the definitions we originally operated under have changed. These changes happened very gradually, and that’s where evolution enters the picture.
"Preservation" is our first goal. When we came up with that some 32 years ago, the cars were in danger of becoming just so many used cars. We realized that they needed to be preserved, first by finding sources for replacement parts so they could continue to be driven. Don’t forget that in 1975, a ’65 GT350 was only 10 years old and ’70 Shelbys were only five years old. Almost all of these cars were daily drivers back then; a "classic car" was a Duesenberg, a Packard or a Cord. Things on our cars were beginning to wear out and most replacement parts were still available from any Ford dealer’s parts department. But we knew this wouldn’t last forever. Manufacturers are required by law to offer replacement parts for ten years; after that things that don’t sell go obsolete. As the years went by, "preservation" acquired a different meaning. Cars were now being restored and there was a keen interest in accuracy. You can see the evolution of the concept of preservation right there.
"Care" originally referred to the proper maintenance that would enable the cars to be used in the manner they were intended. In 1975 relatively few cars were show cars or garage queens, and seeing a fully enclosed trailer at a national convention was a rare sight. Most members found technical articles, part numbers and tips on the best car care products useful. As time passed, more and more cars were restored and as a result, they saw less and less actual use. This change has continued to the point where, today, it is exactly the opposite - a daily driver is the exception to the rule and most cars are only taken out on nice days and driven to meets or shows. In the late 1970s a lot of owners worked on their own cars. Today most cars are taken to professionals. This has eliminated the need for detailed technical articles in the Shelby American. If you don’t rebuild your own transmission, you don’t need to read an article about how to do that. And the guy you’re paying to do it doesn’t need to read the article either.
"History" as a concept does not change; but the perspective from which it is viewed does. The more time that passes, the more difficult it can be to determine the real facts. Those who were there when the cars were being built or raced eventually pass away. Or forget. Owners with axes to grind or investments to protect sometimes attempt to reshape their cars’ history to suit their own needs. Early on we did not always know the right questions to ask. There was a learning curve, and we started recording everything we knew and putting it into registries. These books established a body of knowledge that could be added to and corrected for accuracy. The continual compiling of information on cars - both general and specific - was given a very high priority within the club because we realized how important this was. It was also valuable on a personal level to owners because a registry which is recognized as being accurate becomes a tool for determining the relative worth of cars as well as establishing their histories. A second goal is to recognize the work done by those who built and raced the cars. This is why we try to include an interview in most issues of the Shelby American, and why we make such a big deal of inviting former drivers, fabricators, crew members and employees to national conventions. They are the people who gave life to these inanimate objects. They make the history of these cars come to life.
"Enjoyment" of these cars is the final reason for SAAC to exist and this needs little explanation. Think about the level of enjoyment you have when you are driving your car, all alone. Then think how much that enjoyment increases when you are part of a group of a half dozen cars driving down the road. Or sitting in a parking lot together. Or at a car show. Almost everyone joins the club because of the cars but after a couple of years they discover that the real enjoyment comes from the company of other members. The cars become only so much Muzak in the background. They provide the reason why everyone gets together but it is the personalities and friendships growing out of this that is really the cement that holds the club together. At some point, having a car really isn’t necessary.
When SAAC was started, the cars it catered to were the ones that Carroll Shelby built: Cobras, GT350s and GT500s. We didn’t know much about the Trans-Am notchbacks built by Shelby American back then. Ford GTs were also included because of the role Shelby American played in making them into race winners for Ford, but their small numbers would not be likely to account for a large increase in membership or a shift in the club’s focus. There was also originally a strong Tiger contingent in the club who always took the opportunity to tell anyone who would listen that Shelby and Ken Miles built the first two Tigers.
When we were laying SAAC out on paper we decided at the outset not to limit club membership to only those who owned these cars. "Ownership not Essential - Enthusiasm Is" was our slogan and that has not changed. We knew there were a lot more people interested in these cars than there were cars to go around, and each non-owner was likely to become an owner. Well, we hoped he or she would. It did not make sense to make them wait until after they had purchased a car to join the club. One of the services the club provided to members was information. Those looking for cars would be the very ones most in need of this information.
Many of the people who joined SAAC already owned cars other than Cobras and Shelbys. Most were Ford performance cars: Panteras, early Mustangs, Bosses and a handful of Falcons, Galaxies, Comets and the like. Keep in mind, this was before the proliferation of Cobra replicas and Shelby look-alikes. As the years passed, new members came into the club with the latest Mustang performance models. As those cars became faster and more sophisticated, many Shelby and Cobra owners purchased them to use as daily drivers.
We expanded the convention’s car show classes to accommodate these "enthusiast" cars and we welcomed them into the open track events. Let’s be honest - their entry fees help pay for the track. But we stopped short of putting them on an equal plane with Cobras and Shelbys. Rare were the articles in the Shelby American about Cobra replicas, Panteras or Mustangs because we have a strong feeling about what SAAC stands for. An attempt to widen the scope of the club to include all of these cars would be to dilute and change it. We discussed this when Carroll Shelby began building Dodge-based cars in the mid-1980s. In fact, it was Shelby himself who asked us what effect the production of these cars, carrying his name, was likely to have on SAAC. Would their owners be welcome?
It was a thorny question. We did not want to alter SAAC’s basic make up, so we established the Shelby Dodge Automobile Club as a parallel organization to SAAC which would cater to these cars. We received some help from Dodge (after prodding from Shelby) but after three years of working hard to keep this club afloat and at the same time looking for someone to take it over so we could direct all of our energies towards SAAC, we were unable to find anyone who was willing to make the commitment necessary. So we turned the club over to its strongest region and walked away from it. They immediately downscaled it. SDAC is still active today but it remains small, mostly because those cars just do not inspire the same level of enthusiasm and interest that Cobras and Shelbys do.
We now find that as the value of Cobras and Shelbys continues to appreciate, the cars have been priced beyond the means of some people who still want to be SAAC members. These people have opted to own Cobra replicas, Shelby look-alikes and other Ford performance cars of which there is presently no shortage. The national club is happy to have these people as participating members, and they add a lot to the club. We like to think of them as potential Cobra or Shelby owners. However, they should not expect that we will suddenly change the club’s policy to include cars outside of our purview as equal partners to Cobras and Shelbys. We also understand the symbiotic relationship between local regions and non-Cobra and non-Shelby owning members. In order for regions to do what they would like to do, they need a large membership base. This will, of necessity, include replica, look-alike and late model owners. Most regions operate under a much looser charter than SAAC national, and we have no problem with that. In fact between 33% and 66% of all regional members are not SAAC national members. We have a very clear picture of who we are and what we need to do and we have no plans to deviate from this. We will not try to be all things to all people because when you do that, nobody knows who or what you are. On a national level, when you stand for everything, you really stand for nothing.
As far as CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars are concerned, SAAC accepts these cars as genuine Shelby American Cobras (as opposed to "original" Shelby American Cobras). The definition we use to identify an original Cobra is one which was, 1) built between 1961 and 1968, 2) at the direction of and under contract from Carroll Shelby/Shelby American Inc., and 3) sold by Shelby American or one of its franchised dealers. The only difference between original Cobras and CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars is the time frame in which they were built (1). However, all three factors separate Shelby’s current cars from all the rest of the Cobra replicas, AC MK IVs, COB/COX continuation cars, etc. So, to our way of thinking, the current crop of Cobras are genuine but are not original.In 2005 a new generation of Shelby Mustangs was unveiled. Carroll Shelby was back at work with the Ford Motor Company, and his hand prints were all over the 2007 Shelby GT500 model. The excitement these cars created was amazing... even before the first one was completed. With cars promised for summer 2006 delivery, a veritable feeding frenzy took place and Ford dealers found themselves besieged with potential buyers. Before long they were accepting orders, but only with surcharges of $10,000 to $25,000 over MSRP. Many of these buyers were already SAAC members, but those who weren't were invited to join the club and participate in its activities with this newest generation of Shelbys. Before the first car was completed SAAC was already setting up a registry so the histories of these cars could be recorded from Day One. The same thing was going on with Ford's new Ford GTs.
Carroll Shelby is not a one act play. No sooner were the details finalized on the new GT500s then Shelby and Ford announced they would be teaming up with Hertz to provide that company with a black-and-gold rental version of the Shelby Mustang, called the Shelby GT-H. The 500 examples produced proved so popular that Shelby and Ford followed that up with another model, the Shelby GT - another Shelby Mustang positioned between the standard Mustang GT and the Shelby GT500. Before anyone could catch their breath, Carroll Shelby had pulled three rabbits out of his black cowboy hat and a new generation of Shelby owners was created. Each of these new models will have its own registry and its own following.
For most of us, SAAC is more than just a loose organization of owners and enthusiasts who enjoy cars produced and sold by the same manufacturer. The club is part family, part hobby, part historical archive and part refuge from the pressures of the day to day world. These cars provide the opportunity to lose yourself in the past, when high performance, horsepower and speed were unquestioned virtues. They came from a time before the suffocating blanket of government over-regulation, when bragging about zero-to-sixty times and top speeds were the coin of the realm. They start out as simple automotive diversions but quickly become a part of your life. Join us and find out what makes these cars so special.
click here to go directly to a membership application

P.O. Box 788
Sharon, CT 06069
fax: 860-364-0769
saac@saac.com

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Hope you find this information helpful.

[Nedsel]

That's pretty much what everyone has acknowledged. The 60's Cobras are the original, authentic Cobras that define the term "real" in most peoples' minds when they ask the question, "Is that a real Cobra?" They are not asking how exact a copy of the 60's cars your car might be; they are asking, "Was it made in the 60's? Hence, is it a real Cobra?"

[Paul F]

That was interesting reading Evan. Me and a few of my Cobra buddies were going to buy copies of the SAAC registry, but you saved us the trouble.

[Al G]

I think the key point here is the use of the word "genuine."

[REAL 1]

Nah, not to the non Shelby owners around this site. To them...depends what you mean by "genuine".

After all it's kinda like when Clinton said it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is.

[55312]

Not to be too picky here but this part of the SAAC diatribe has me confused.

The only difference between original Cobras and CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars is the time frame in which they were built (1). However, all three factors separate Shelby’s current cars from all the rest of the Cobra replicas, AC MK IVs, COB/COX continuation cars, etc. So, to our way of thinking, the current crop of Cobras are genuine but are not original.

In 1965 I worked for a Ford dealership 18 miles from Sharon, CT. I worked on a small block COB Cobra that was right hand side drive. That car was ORIGINAL ! At the time, it belonged to the nephew of the Dealership's owner. A few years ago I traced it through the SAAC registry and it's still around but has been converted to left hand drive and the last I knew, it's back in CA. My understanding was the COB designation was used for exported Cobra's and this one had been exported to the UK and ended up back in the US, in San Diego, where the owner's nephew bought it. The real irony was it was traded by the nephew for a Porsche 914 Targa (VW) !! He was tired of worrying about denting the Aluminum body.............

Tim

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 55312

Not to be too picky here but this part of the SAAC diatribe has me confused.

The only difference between original Cobras and CSX4000 and CSX7000 cars is the time frame in which they were built (1). However, all three factors separate Shelby’s current cars from all the rest of the Cobra replicas, AC MK IVs, COB/COX continuation cars, etc. So, to our way of thinking, the current crop of Cobras are genuine but are not original.

In 1965 I worked for a Ford dealership 18 miles from Sharon, CT. I worked on a small block COB Cobra that was right hand side drive. That car was ORIGINAL ! At the time, it belonged to the nephew of the Dealership's owner. A few years ago I traced it through the SAAC registry and it's still around but has been converted to left hand drive and the last I knew, it's back in CA. My understanding was the COB designation was used for exported Cobra's and this one had been exported to the UK and ended up back in the US, in San Diego, where the owner's nephew bought it. The real irony was it was traded by the nephew for a Porsche 914 Targa (VW) !! He was tired of worrying about denting the Aluminum body.............

Tim

Tim, a lot of what you mention is correct. With respect to Cobras built and sold by AC Cars that were not part of the Shelby contract, the COB designation indicated right hand drive, i.e. a car for the UK (hence the B, for Britain) while the COX VIN indicated left hand drive, for Europe or Canada (hence the X, for eXport out of Britain). The COB car you recall, 6047, has been back in Europe for the past few years.

One aspect of what was published in the 2008 SAAC registry that many people fail to consider is that SAAC was smack in the middle of a legal battle with Carroll Shelby when the registry was being written. Given the delicacy of the proceedings, great care was taken not to antagonize Shelby or his attorneys, and certain liberties were taken with respect to what might otherwise have been seen as calling a spade a spade. At the time, it was PC to call it a shovel instead. Otherwise, one might have pointed out that out was AC Cars, Ltd. that created the AEX, BEX, COX, COB, and CSX chassis numbers (among others), which were simply a series of alterations in specification to the original AC Ace designated by A, B, and C to highlight the changes. The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK. Read up on the legal battle between Shelby and Brian Angliss of AK, and note that Angliss built a number of cars using a CSX 3xxx VIN, using the theory, "if Shelby can appropriate what was AC's, AC can do the same to what was Shelby's."

The bottom line is that the newer Cobras, whether built by Shelby in the U.S. or AK in the U.K., lack the cooperative Anglo-American production model used in the construction of the 60's versions, and are therefore fundamentally different even if their specifications are similar.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Al G

I think the key point here is the use of the word "genuine."

Do you really think your car is genuine? Seriously?

A few other keywords to consider is that Registry also refers to the CSX 4000/6000/7000/8000 replicas as "Cobra-like" and "true replicas." Which they are and has been recognized as by many true historians. And logic tells you that anything considered a replica cannot be genuine or authentic. They just can't be.

They're built 30-50 years later, built with completely different materials by different companies.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

One aspect of what was published in the 2008 SAAC registry that many people fail to consider is that SAAC was smack in the middle of a legal battle with Carroll Shelby when the registry was being written. Given the delicacy of the proceedings, great care was taken not to antagonize Shelby or his attorneys, and certain liberties were taken with respect to what might otherwise have been seen as calling a spade a spade.

Well, there you go. From the SAAC Cobra Registrar. Perfect!

And hopefully, with any nod to historical accuracy, any "liberty taken" (aka "nonsense") will be removed from the Registry in its entirety.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK.

Finally. A statement by someone other than me that AC would not have continued without Shelby. The Cobra was Shelby's influence. The Ace would have withered away without his "partnership" if you want to call it that. That is the PC version of what we today call a supplier relationship.

[twobjshelbys]

It is also an observation that after all of the careful wording and mutual backstratching that the SAAC seems to be oriented towards ditching acknowledging all Shelby vehicles after the originals. Will similar treatment be made to the Angliss cars, the McClusky cars and (ahhhem) Kirkham?

I assume it would retain the GT500/GT350's but also drop Ford GT.

If so then the registry (which will never ever be published in paper again) is an uninteresting document except for reference at auctions.

[55312]

Thanks Ned

That all makes sense.

I just remember how blindingly fast that thing was and never forgot it! First real rocket I got to work on. Made my 55 Vicky with the 312 feel like a boat anchor...........

[Nedsel]

Tony, the simple fact is that one of the points in the legal battle brought by Shelby against SAAC was his desire to take over the Registry. SAAC fought hard to prevent that from happening. Today, it is SAAC's position that they prefer to be an organization dedicated to the historic Shelbys of the 60's and early 70's, while ceding to the modern Shelby organization control of anything having to do with the later production cars.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Today, it is SAAC's position that they prefer to be an organization dedicated to the historic Shelbys of the 60's and early 70's, while ceding to the modern Shelby organization control of anything having to do with the later production cars.

Hey Evan, uh, "SAAC's position." Huh. That doesn't sound like just Ned's position.

Can you please pass the white-out tape, or maybe they'll just use the backspace button a few thousand times. "Edit cut" works too.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Finally. A statement by someone other than me that AC would not have continued without Shelby. The Cobra was Shelby's influence. The Ace would have withered away without his "partnership" if you want to call it that. That is the PC version of what we today call a supplier relationship.

Ned post read,
"The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK."

I don't find that Ned says AC Cars would have withered away without Shelby?
If you make that assumption it would be possible to assume that Shelby would have withered away without the efforts of AC Cars.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

... Today, it is SAAC's position that they prefer to be an organization dedicated to the historic Shelbys of the 60's and early 70's, while ceding to the modern Shelby organization control of anything having to do with the later production cars.

Ergo, SAAC's preference would be to separate the wheat from the chaff, I'm good with that

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Tim, a lot of what you mention is correct. With respect to Cobras built and sold by AC Cars that were not part of the Shelby contract, the COB designation indicated right hand drive, i.e. a car for the UK (hence the B, for Britain) while the COX VIN indicated left hand drive, for Europe or Canada (hence the X, for eXport out of Britain). The COB car you recall, 6047, has been back in Europe for the past few years.

One aspect of what was published in the 2008 SAAC registry that many people fail to consider is that SAAC was smack in the middle of a legal battle with Carroll Shelby when the registry was being written. Given the delicacy of the proceedings, great care was taken not to antagonize Shelby or his attorneys, and certain liberties were taken with respect to what might otherwise have been seen as calling a spade a spade. At the time, it was PC to call it a shovel instead. Otherwise, one might have pointed out that out was AC Cars, Ltd. that created the AEX, BEX, COX, COB, and CSX chassis numbers (among others), which were simply a series of alterations in specification to the original AC Ace designated by A, B, and C to highlight the changes. The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK. Read up on the legal battle between Shelby and Brian Angliss of AK, and note that Angliss built a number of cars using a CSX 3xxx VIN, using the theory, "if Shelby can appropriate what was AC's, AC can do the same to what was Shelby's."

The bottom line is that the newer Cobras, whether built by Shelby in the U.S. or AK in the U.K., lack the cooperative Anglo-American production model used in the construction of the 60's versions, and are therefore fundamentally different even if their specifications are similar.

Really? So SAAC was being PC? This explains all the effort to register the CSX 4000 Cobras and the entire chapter devoted to the car which discusses the "replica" issue and the explanations sets forth which are factual and logical. Explains the logical definitions as used both in the body and in the Appendix.

So, is the SAAC "3000 Registar" speaking for SAAC here? Is this an official statement?

Regardless, fact is not even the CSX 3000 "Registar" can change the facts, despite his bias for the original cars

So is the 3000 Registar now saying SAAC really didn't print what they really thought and didn't mean what they printed about the current production Cobras and the definitions that apply to them but nevertheless collected how much selling how many copies of the Registry? Please clarify.

So if SAAC is no longer concerned with the current production Cobras maybe Continuation owners should stop registering their cars with SAAC for the next Registry? I guess SAAC doesn't even need a Continuation Series Registar then? Hmmm. Hell, if SAAC is printing stuff they really didn't mean (did they?) because they are "PC" who needs the Registry?

So what is the next Reigistry going to say Ned? The current production Shelby Cobras aren't Shelby Cobras? Puhleese. Really? Why wait. Publish a statement now.

Oh by the way....AC doesn't own the rights to "CSX" designations.. Do they? Current production Cobras don't need the "AC" Paradigm to be a genuine Shelby Cobra. Period. Originals do. At least according the defintions of the Registry as much as we can rely on them I guess.

Fact is Team Shelby does have a broad scope. Fact is SAAC is still soliciting CSX Continuation registrations, aren't they? Fact is SAAC' is currently taking the position they are broadening the scope of cars accepted in membership not narrowing the scope.

Current statement from the SAAC website:

Welcome to the Shelby American Automobile Club. SAAC is an international organization that was founded in 1975. It was originally dedicated to the preservation, care, history and enjoyment of the world championship cars from Shelby American and the cars they have inspired from 1962 to today. Those goals have not changed. Ownership is not required for membership—just enthusiasm.
Every large automobile marque has at least one organization for owners and enthusiasts.

The cars that Carroll Shelby built between 1962 and 1970 are no different. SAAC has been in existence since 1975 and has published award winning magazines, newsletters and books since then. The club is recognized as the undisputed authority on the history and legacy of these cars. Carroll Shelby stopped building cars in 1970, but enthusiasm for them increased every year after that. The trouble was that, aside from a handful of owners, nobody knew very much about these cars. And even then, their knowledge was based only on their car and a handful of others they had seen. Shelbys and Cobras weren’t exactly plentiful. With everyone asking questions, one of the goals of the club became researching the production history and specifications of these cars and sharing what was learned with members. In the 1990s and beyond, Shelby became aware of the increased interest and subsequent rise in value of the cars and began building another generation of them—both Cobras and Shelby Mustangs. SAAC was originally set up to cater to the cars Carroll Shelby created and raced — Cobras, GT350s, GT500s and Ford GTs — but since its inception the club has broadened its parameters to accept virtually all high performance Ford-powered cars including Tigers, Mangustas and Panteras, Boss 302, 351 and 429 Mustangs, AC Mk IVs, Cobra 4000s, Mustangs of every year including the latest generation of Shelby GTs and GT500s, Griffiths, Italias, Galaxies, Fairlanes, Comets and yes—even Cobra kit cars. While SAAC does not accord “equal” status to all these other vehicles, it nonetheless welcomes them (and their owners) into the club. The reason for this is simple: SAAC has no ownership requirements, so in that sense everyone is welcome to participate. Many members own more than one hobby car and while that first car is usually a Cobra or a Shelby, often the second vehicle is some other Ford performance car. So it is the membership which has actually broadened the club’s scope and determined what cars are accepted at club events.....



Shelby's been dead how many years now? 3 1/2 years? Suits been over for how many years? 7 years? Seems like SAAC hasn't hasn't changed what they said one bit.

Seems like the 3000 Registar has an axe to grind.

I don't need the 3000 Registar to tell me what the current production Cobras are. The facts and law do. Oh yeah, so does the World Registry in black and white and the former and current SAAC statement about the club.

BTW I think the 40th Edition of the SAAC World Registry did a great job dealing with the Current Production Cobras and did so logically, correctly and fairly.

[RodKnock]

You started with three...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Facts, law and World Registry.

OOPS! Lost one of those pegs on your chair...no Registry anymore.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The facts and law do.

What facts? If it's not an original, then it's a replica. And if it's a replica, and it obviously is, then it can't be genuine, real or authentic. Those are the facts.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

You started with three...



OOPS! Lost one of those pegs on your chair...no Registry anymore.



What facts? If it's not an original, then it's a replica. And if it's a replica, and it obviously is, then it can't be genuine, real or authentic. Those are the facts.

Thinks so? Based on what the "3000 Registar" said above Obviously doesn't take much for you to buy in. There's un-biased opinion. If Ned wants to tell you the sky is pink and if you want to buy it go right ahead. A "3000 Registar" can't change facts and law nor does it seem the statements of "his" club (then or now) even comport with his current statements. But if it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy following the "3000 Registar" have at it.

Not me.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Thinks so?

Not me.

"Me" doesn't have a single thing to do with the Registry, which you have always relied on to support your weak, and now weakening, position.

A replica cannot be genuine.