Continuation Cobras & SAAC

[Joe's Garage]

Instant replay, some are so good you just can't let them go -

Ned's statement, nothing wrong here, just info from Ned based on knowledge and experience -

Originally Posted by Nedsel

... The original Cobras were the result of a joint effort by both AC Cars and Shelby American, but neither would have produced the same car absent the willingness of the other to cooperate in their production. Hence, the later "Cobras" built exclusively by Shelby used VINs to which Shelby had dubious legitimate claim and were never approved by AC Cars nor its successor entity, AK ...

Then the reply, I figure a 7.8 on the brainfart Rickter Scale -

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Finally. A statement by someone other than me that AC would not have continued without Shelby. The Cobra was Shelby's influence. The Ace would have withered away without his "partnership" if you want to call it that. That is the PC version of what we today call a supplier relationship.

WTF! Where in Ned's post does it say ... oh never mind.
Yes folks, another one of those "you can't make this sh!t up."

Notwithstanding the twilight zone comment, Google AC history -
Although untrue, it is commonly believed that AC was left without a future source of power and that American ex-racing driver Carroll Shelby saved the company from bankruptcy.
Name, Significant Cars, Inc.

AC Cars was already doing business with Ford in 1961, before Shelby -
Bristol decided in 1961 to cease production of its engine and instead to use Chrysler 331 cu in (5.4 L) V8 engines. AC started using the 2.6 litre Ford Zephyr engine in its cars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

Shelby Cobras went belly-up in 1967, AC Cars kept pumping them out until 1973 -
AC Cars kept producing the coil-spring AC Roadster with narrow fenders, a small block Ford 289 and called the car the AC 289. It was built and sold in Europe until late 1969. AC also produced the AC 428 until 1973.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Cobra

At least Tony got one "like" for this award winning post, REAL 1

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm surprised you know what "arrogant" means. On second thought you probably just took out Websters.

LOL, Websters is for old geezers like you, I'm a young buck, I use SIRI, OLD MAN,,,, do you know what douch bag means, if it's not in your paper Websters, use Google...

[RodKnock]

You went from this...

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

If so then the registry (which will never ever be published in paper again) is an uninteresting document except for reference at auctions.

to this?

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

My point is to the viability of a new printed registry. The published registry grew from the original to add the additional Cobras and Ford GTs. It was stated at the time the desire for this (in addition to adding Kirkhams) was an attempt to corral those into their own corner and prevent cloning them into originals. This is accomplished by segregating them. (That's just what I heard here, or so my memory goes. I thought aspect is pretty successful.)

That said, subtract them out and the difference between a 1987 registry and a new 201x registry is only the published history of what happened to the original cars between 1987 and 201x. Some owners may contribute information that is not public (until it's in the registry) but from the get go most of the information is already out there, and once the registry is published, what wasn't will be. [Note: Public == Internet]

So a published registry has a pretty doubtful business plan given the cost of publishing paper vs. the free internet. And an electronic one had just as well be free.

Huh, I didn't connect the dots from "uninteresting document" to the viability of the "new printed Registry."

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

I think my interest in the originals is pretty well founded. Have you ever been to the Shelby American Collection? Lots of history there.

No, I'm not big on museums. They're generally for students on a field trip and old people.

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Good luck though.

For what? Why would you wish me "good luck though"? I don't need your good luck, but thanks for the offer.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Tony: Good post, again. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of "oranges" around here.

Your posts are some of the few I bother to stop and read while skipping over on a routine basis the other flotsam and jetsam.

You two should get a room.

You guys can continue to play grab-ass all you want, but the modern Shelby Cobra is a REPLICA. The ONLY REAL GENUINE COBRAS were made during the 1962-1967 time frame by the original Shelby American company and sold as brand new complete cars that you could register with the dealership and drive off the lot with a warranty.

Built 50 years later by a different company, different materials and can't make Federal safety and emissions standards. REPLICA! CLONE! Dolly The Sheep.

[Tutosnake]

Originally Posted by gthompson

I'm not sure why some people get so hung up on referring to their car as original, real, authentic, copy, replica, reproduction, etc.

Isn't this about being in a community of people that share a common interest or love for the Cobra?

I have a lot of fun hanging out with everyone at our monthly DFW meets and/or drives.

All of these posts just create hard feelings and divisiveness.

I think that the more people involved in this hobby, the better.

Unfortunately, it seems every single contributor to this thread missed or ignored your comment. I absolutely agree with you 150%. All these guys miss the point. The hobby is about a car. A hybrid car of sorts. A really ****ty car by many standards. Loud, shaky, nervous,and many times dangerous. A temperamental car. As such, the car will entertain numerous needs, and fulfill many a dream. The originals are better, and some copies can be the best.

I hate myself for chirping in. I rather read, but today I was weak. It's really simple. It's all about your budget, and how rational a person you are. Are you the guy who wants the original, at any cost, and nothing else? You have potentially 998 options. Are you the guy who likes to consider cost/value options and apply them to your financial reality? Then you have plenty of manufacturers and products that'll get you there with a broad degree of variation to suit your situation/need. Branding is a long established entity. From generic (by definition brand-less) to the market defining name. In between, you have a number of options that essentially fill everyone's financial "wisdom". You get what you pay for (in most instances).

I think owners of "Continuation" cars should limit their claims to what the brand they bought actually is. In my case, I bought a Shelby Cobra, CSX6108. Not a real Cobra, but a Shelby replica built 3 years ago, just like the 998 of the 60's (well, there were many less 427 SC, but we all know that). I always tell people it is not an original Cobra, but a replica built by Shelby. People almost unanimously ask where it was built and I simplify it by saying "North Carolina", where my builder resides. EVERYONE GETS IT. In over three years I have yet to hear a disappointed response to my statement. Almost every time I get "It's f'ing awesome". You know why? Because the car IS f'ing awesome. Thats why it is arguably the most replicated car in sports car history.

The theoretical 998 owners (some own more that one, some cars are gone) need not worry and ruminate over the authenticity of their car(s). When confronted with the question "Is it REAL?", you have the right to say "It IS". End of answer. Why would you be upset that people ask? You should not be. Otherwise, you didnt know what you were buying in the first place! It is the most replicated car in the world! What do you expect? You wanted exclusivity for your 2 million dollar car buy? You should have bought that Ferrari or Bugatti...

Lay it down for good. Continuation Cobras are only "Real"to the owner who like me paid the premium for that plaque, because it meant something to him/me. It sure means a lot to me. Is the Kirkham nicer? I could care less. It is a Kirkham, not a Shelby. If I had wanted a cheaper, better built ERA, I would have ordered one. If I had wanted a possibly faster, more comp oriented Backdraft or FF, I would have gotten one. I wanted the replica "built" by Shelby American, and that's what I bought, complete with the Carroll Shelby mystique and distinction. Because no matter what you claim, you can't erase that guy's paternity claim on the Cobra.

The Kirkham owners seem very resolute in propagating or perpetuating the notion that a Shelby Cobra is not worth its premium. Why not? The belief that modern technology (CNC for example) and aluminum have made the 60's obsolete and/or dumb does not trump the fact that Carroll Shelby is whom he is/was. No modern aluminum suspension and/or frame can quiet the glory of Shelby American's racing heritage. Kirkham, or FF, or ERA, or any one else was not there. Let's face it, only Shelby was there with the Cobra for the USA. Therefore, I for one decided to pay (literally and figuratively speaking) tribute to that heritage in buying a CSX6000 car. God knows I did not buy a 2000 or 3000 car because I cannot afford it.

I love the Kirkham polished aluminum cars. God, they are beautiful. I also drool when I see their aluminum everything! Yet, they are not Shelby.

Just my 2 cents...
Cheers and enjoy your Cobra, no matter where it comes from

Cheers

[Joe's Garage]

All that needed to be said ...

Originally Posted by Tutosnake

... I think owners of "Continuation" cars should limit their claims to what the brand they bought actually is. In my case, I bought a Shelby Cobra, CSX6108. Not a real Cobra, but a Shelby replica ...

I always tell people it is not an original Cobra, but a replica built by Shelby ...

If everyone followed those guidelines this thread wouldn't exist.

[Tutosnake]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

All that needed to be said ...



If everyone followed those guidelines this thread wouldn't exist.

Good morning!
That being said, if in its next Registry SAAC indeed decides to use language that further alienates or separates the club from the Continuation cars, then I will withhold my membership and not buy the book. It is (or should be) a Shelby family, and I consider myself a long distance relative, and as such would be very sad if my kin would prefer to wash that relationship away with words and technicalities... No need to be abrasive.

I'm taking CSX6108 out for lunch. It is beautiful here down South

[Joe's Garage]

Historical cars of prominence, sold as complete vehicles in limited quantities, should not be co-mingled with mass produced incomplete component/kit/specialty constructed copies. Two entirely different markets. If you buy a book showcasing original highly collectible art, how many pages are wasted on current production forgeries? - None.

[CHANMADD]

It seems to me that the original cars came with an engine and a current DOT compliant MSO. These current cars have to use a "sixties" MSO, to skirt around the originality issue. So a proper current legal Cobra would comply with current road safety standards, which as we know is impossible. So to get these cars sold ,and registered they have to be classified as replicas.Simple........My car is very real.......and..I'll come race you to prove it.......but I built it as a replica......

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Tutosnake

Not a real Cobra, but a Shelby replica built 3 years ago, just like the 998 of the 60's (well, there were many less 427 SC, but we all know that). I always tell people it is not an original Cobra, but a replica built by Shelby.

Everyone doesn't get it. Not all Shelby replica owners believe they own a replica, but thankfully you do.

Originally Posted by Tutosnake

The Kirkham owners seem very resolute in propagating or perpetuating the notion that a Shelby Cobra is not worth its premium. Why not? The belief that modern technology (CNC for example) and aluminum have made the 60's obsolete and/or dumb does not trump the fact that Carroll Shelby is whom he is/was. No modern aluminum suspension and/or frame can quiet the glory of Shelby American's racing heritage.

I love the Kirkham polished aluminum cars. God, they are beautiful. I also drool when I see their aluminum everything! Yet, they are not Shelby.

There are other owners here with other brands that believe the Shelby replica isn't worth it. It's not just Kirkham owners. Personally, I thought the CSX plaque was worthless, to me, since it's a replica, built by a successor company 30-50 years later, not 1 of the 998. I consider the connection to be extremely distant at best. And then the Kirkham quality and customer service were excellent.

So, where does the "Shelby replica is not worth it" come from? Well, for instance the 50th Anniversary Shelby 427SC replica roller is $180,000. Kirkham supplies the entire roller to Shelby. You buy it at the same price painted or polished. $180,000. The Kirkham polished roller to the public is $115,000. There may be a few options that I'm not clicking off, but otherwise it's the same car for additional $65,000. so that's the Genesis for the "Shelby is not worth it" crowd.

But I'm very happy that you're a satisfied customer of Shelby. Best of luck.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Tutosnake

Good morning!
That being said, if in its next Registry SAAC indeed decides to use language that further alienates or separates the club from the Continuation cars, then I will withhold my membership and not buy the book. It is (or should be) a Shelby family, and I consider myself a long distance relative, and as such would be very sad if my kin would prefer to wash that relationship away with words and technicalities... No need to be abrasive.

Is alienation being dropped from the Registry? Because SAAC welcomes all. Ownership is not required. I've been a member of SAAC since I was a kid. I've never owned anything Shelby. I did own a Sunbeam Tiger, but that Shelby connection is a bit distant too. But if my Kirkham (or your Shelby replica) is removed from the Registry, I will still continue to be a member. Ownership is not required. Enthusiasm is.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

... so that's the Genesis for the "Shelby is not worth it" crowd ...

That's the aluminum replica example, there is a similar comparison for the "glass" replicas.

SPF sells a glass roller for $X
Shelby sells a glass roller for $Y
But the Shelby roller uses a body built at the same factory as SPF and by the same workers under Shelby license. SPF has a "ladder chassis" with excellent torsional stiffness. Shelby comes with a round tube chassis probably not quite as stiff. The remaining "a la carte" add-ons are similar in quality and degree of replication to the original (wheels, gauges etc.), yet the SPF roller is cheaper than the Shelby roller.

[REAL 1]

Tuto and everyone else is free to see and describe their car as they wish. That's their business as long as your not passing it off as something its not which would be dishonest.

Tuto feels his car is not a "real" Cobra but he paid all that money for a "plaque" and mystic and distinction???? . Certainly twisted reasoning to me. Ok, that's fine with me, he can feel and see his car that way. His belief and position is at odds with the Registry, the facts and law. He is applying the term "replica" in it's commonly misused manner to his Shelby but hey... good for him if it makes him happy. Thankfully Rodknock found a continuation owner that see his car as a "fake" Shelby Cobra made by Shelby with all the mystic and distinction that separates it from the rest. But Hallelujah anyway!

Twisted logic of any car owner doesn't change things one bit.

The current production Cobras are "true" replicas as defined by Websters. Never said they weren't. Agreed. However, no other can be a true "replica" of a Shelby Cobra. However, all the others can be "replicas" as that term is used and commonly understood, i.e. fake Cobra.

I know a lot of you just got lost again.

Registry explains it all. But I guess the Registry is kaput anyway so I'm just gonna throw mine out.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The current production Cobras are "true" replicas as defined by Websters. Never said they weren't. Agreed. However, no other can be a true "replica" of a Shelby Cobra. However, all the others can be "replicas" as that term is used and commonly understood, i.e. fake Cobra.

Now that is as clear as Missouri Mud.

[Joe's Garage]

- Public Service Announcement -

It has come to our attention that at least one member is impersonating being a CSX4000 owner. Sources further describe the imposter as a "chamois toting lackey" who just enjoys shinning his spouse's CSX. So members beware, know who you are posting to. Further information will be provided as it becomes available.

- This concludes the Public Service Announcement -

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

That's the aluminum replica example, there is a similar comparison for the "glass" replicas.

SPF sells a glass roller for $X
Shelby sells a glass roller for $Y
But the Shelby roller uses a body built at the same factory as SPF and by the same workers under Shelby license. SPF has a "ladder chassis" with excellent torsional stiffness. Shelby comes with a round tube chassis probably not quite as stiff. The remaining "a la carte" add-ons are similar in quality and degree of replication to the original (wheels, gauges etc.), yet the SPF roller is cheaper than the Shelby roller.

Some of is put more value on the round tube chassis as it provides an experience closer to the original cars. Way back at the beginning of the other thread someone said the "best" car is the one that meets what the owner wants. A round tube chassis was best for me and many others.

The bodies are not the same. Both are fiberglass but the shapes are different. There are many details in the construction that make the cars different. But I understand details seem to be beyond your comprehension level.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by Al G

Some of is put more value on the round tube chassis as it provides an experience closer to the original cars. Way back at the beginning of the other thread someone said the "best" car is the one that meets what the owner wants. A round tube chassis was best for me and many others.

The bodies are not the same. Both are fiberglass but the shapes are different. There are many details in the construction that make the cars different. But I understand details seem to be beyond your comprehension level.

yup !!!

[REAL 1]

Blue/Al: Take a look at page 30 of the Registry. You will find separate categories of original Cobras that are recognized as "REAL" Cobras despite the fact many have been partially or totally reconstructed with nothing more than a tag remaining.

A cogent argument exists that current production Cobras have more Shelby Cobra DNA than some partially reconstructed and especially completely reconstructed originals regardless of their CSX #. If a completely reconstructed 1960's is a real Shelby Cobra what we own is sure as hell a real Shelby Cobra. At least as far as the I'm concerned.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

There are other owners here with other brands that believe the Shelby replica isn't worth it. It's not just Kirkham owners. Personally, I thought the CSX plaque was worthless, to me, since it's a replica, built by a successor company 30-50 years later, not 1 of the 998. I consider the connection to be extremely distant at best. And then the Kirkham quality and customer service were excellent.

So, where does the "Shelby replica is not worth it" come from? Well, for instance the 50th Anniversary Shelby 427SC replica roller is $180,000. Kirkham supplies the entire roller to Shelby. You buy it at the same price painted or polished. $180,000. The Kirkham polished roller to the public is $115,000. There may be a few options that I'm not clicking off, but otherwise it's the same car for additional $65,000. so that's the Genesis for the "Shelby is not worth it" crowd.

But I'm very happy that you're a satisfied customer of Shelby. Best of luck.

Hey Shelby is in it for the $$$ ???? Hell ya !!! $$$$ makes the world go round. If someone wants to pay it who cares ?? Want the CSX plaque ?? Good.. If ya don't then keep walking. Look at Ford with its Fusion. Lincoln MKS is the same damm thing with a better dress on it !! Ya I bought that to.

[Dimis]

Not sure why you boys dug this up.
There was a sand pit built to kick this sh!t around in.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

That's their business as long as your not passing it off as something its not which would be dishonest.

Hello Kettle, please meet Pot.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Tuto feels his car is not a "real" Cobra but he paid all that money for a "plaque" and mystic and distinction???? .

Maybe he just wanted to replicate the driving experience as best as possible.
he even preferred the old school chassis and suspension?!?
Could possibly even afford an original too... But didn't want to ruin its history by binning it... It's not THAT hard to fathom.
He need not justify to you or I. It's his perogative. Same as why you put old iron in yours, there may be superior items available, but they didn't suit his purpose.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Twisted logic of any car owner doesn't change things one bit.

100% Agreed!