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Kirkham Motorsports

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  • 2 Post By patrickt

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:22 AM
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Default Ford Coyote engines getting interesting

460 Hp @7000 RPM
420 ft-lb Torque @ 4600 RPM
445 Lb
$9500
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-M50C

I recently read Ford racing is offering a 5.2 Ltr Aluminator (I think) that has pretty much all the best stuff from all the top Hp Coyote offerings that was a good hop north of 500 Hp (seems like 580). Red Line near 8500 RPM. It is not emissions legal for modern cars, but would fine for an aftermarket car like ours.

Sean Hyhland will sell you supercharged units at any power level you want.

PCM and wire harness is ~$1700. Looks like $10-20K will get you 450-600 true Hp in an engine that purrs like a kitty, gets good fuel economy, and relatively clean emissions. As an engine Geek, that's fricking amazing.

The only problem, I do not think I could stomach the purrs like a kitty, in a Cobra. I really like the radical idle sound.

What are other people's thoughts on this?
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:02 AM
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Default Big cam

I was going to go that route a couple years ago ,with the paddle shift . I decided big cam stroker motor, with a carburetor . More proper for these cars. However than being said love the borla old school multi port fuel injection. I went with a single carb 750 cfm for easy tuning
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:55 AM
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I installed a coyote in my FFR mk4 and love the engine. Doesn't have the big cam idle sound but at 7500 rpm it sounds wicked. Runs great and still putting out 420 Hp to the rear wheels. My wife and daughter can hop in, push the start button and go like a modern car. Not sure about mpg yet but I know it's decent.
Would do it again.
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:56 AM
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I agree with hauss. As most here know, I went with an old school SFT cam from the early 60's, that has 96 degrees of overlap, just for the sound it all makes. A single Holley on top that I can tune/adjust/rebuild in my sleep. And I went for the leather seats just for the smell. It's all part of "the experience" and, as power goes, I probably only open the secondaries maybe once or twice a summer, and I've gone years between WOT romps.
xb-60 and hauss like this.
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:05 PM
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Even with TiVCT the low speed torque of the n/a Coyote is not on par with a large displacement pushrod engine. When you supercharge, it is easily the same or more low speed torque.

Low speed torque translates into responsiveness to the driver's gas pedal commands. High torque means electric vehicle like throttle response. Low torque means Sunday go to meeting like throttle response.

When ford built the Coyote they used a 100mm bore center block. The Coyote has a 3.629" bore that translates into a 92.2mm bore size. With a 100mm bore center that only leaves a 7.8mm web between bores or 0.307".

A web thickness between cylinders of .3" works OK for n/a engines but not so well for s/c engines. The gasket web between cylinders becomes noticeably tender above 15 lbs of boost — particularly in daily driver type usage.

To get the kind of low speed torque the larger pushrod V8's have you will need 16 to 18 psi of boost. That will put you into the uncomfortable gasket leakage between cylinders space. In an aluminum block using a supercharger, that leak across the webbing between cylinders will torch the block and head.

The engine Ford worked hard to kill at the Coyote introduction (the 4.6L SVT Cobra) was a supercharged 100mm bore center block with 90.2mm bores and 9.8mm (0.386") webbing between cylinder bores. Even with the increased web thickness the seal between cylinders became tender above 24 psi.

The Coyote may not be the best pick for what you are trying to do. Someone on the site here had one of Ford's FR500C big bore 5 liter n/a road race engines in his Cobra. For a while he used to promote how his engine would sing at 7000 or 8000 rpm — I forget which anymore. He eventually sold the car and bought a Kirkham with a 482 or so inch FE. He had experience with both the high torque pushrod engine and also the high power high rpm small displacement model. He had to admit the pushrods and big inches were more satisfying.

You can get around the inches issue with a blower but with head gaskets being a tender spot you will quickly tire of the repair / maintenance required by that engine build model.


Ed


p.s. you can get the lumpy idle by just tightening up on the lobe separation angle for the intake and exhaust cams.
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:29 PM
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When you are at 460/420 Hp/Torque N/A, 15 psi boost is going to end up near 900/800 Hp/Torque. That's more than just about any N/A big inch push rod engine in a Cobra running on the streets. You really do not need to go that far. 5 or 10 psi boost should dirty the shorts of most of us, if 460/420 is too tame for you.

No matter how you slice it, these engines are impressive coming from Ford.

I'm with most of you, I would stay with a push rod, myself, but I do not look down on anyone going this route. Shelby would have used any technology available to go faster. He wasn't hung up on engine families.
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:30 PM
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I totally agree, the torque will never compare to the pushrod big block. I built the car for a track toy and high rpm hp was more important plus the coyotes are bulletproof. I could always drop a whipple on it if I need more hp but don't think it's needed in a car that weighs 2300 lbs.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:31 PM
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you want lumpy idle
https://youtu.be/RT0aiAd7W2w
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Old 02-03-2019, 07:43 PM
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Hmm.. I read and watched coyotes with 4 digit power. They're running fine. 7 seconds in a quarter and hauling ass in the half. mile. Pretty much sure boost is high. There's even a build up on YouTube with a 1000hp coyote.

They're are big blocks GM and Ford in NA formats pushing over 800 hp and swinging close to 9000 in cobras. I recall the past autoX winner 3170 has a screaming Big Block over 800hp.

I do love those turbo V8s in the snake too...
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:14 PM
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These engines are truly impressive olddog (apologies I know your first name but I'm having a senior moment ). Don't get misled however by doubling manifold pressures and expecting to see double the torque and power. When you double the manifold pressure you need to use a compressor.

If it is a positive displacement belt driven unit like a KB or a Whipple then you will consume power to drive the compressor and that power will not show up at the flywheel. A good rule of thumb is somewhere between 125 and 150 HP depending on how much boost and how efficient a compressor.

The net net bottom line is the engine will probably see a best case scenario looking like somewhere between 600 to 650 ft/lbs of torque and somewhere between 750 to 800 FWHP at 6500 rpm — ask me how I know

Two of the very intoxicating aspects of the PD blown versions of the engines are the impressively flat torque curve they have from essentially off idle all the way up the rpm scale and how far up that rpm scale you can go. Of course increased engine speeds beyond 6500 will bring correspondingly higher power numbers. Using reasonable cams, properly phased, the 4V pent roof design heads have a stunning air flow capability across an extremely wide engine operating rpm range.

Here are two different cammed examples of a supercharged version of the engine idling. While healthy sounding, our traditional Cobra idle is not evident. To produce the traditional sounding big block Cobra idle you would have to narrow the LSA between the exhaust and intake cams.

First Car Idling

Second Car Idling

The second car more closely approximates the Classic sound but still is not period correct. Again the LSA between the intakes and the exhaust needs to be narrowed up a bit.


Ed
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Last edited by eschaider; 02-04-2019 at 01:06 PM.. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:14 PM
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Ed,

Your right, I did forget about the Hp consumed to pump the air.

On the other hand, since Ford has turbo charged just about everything else and calling it ecoboost, they could easily put twin turbos on one of these, and make stupid Hp. Turbo isn't totally free power, but uses a lot less than a belt driving a compressor.

I have a 2016 Escape with a 2.0 Ltr EcoBoost. I can honestly say in 20+K miles, I have never once felt any turbo lag. The variable Vane Turbo technology has made a huge improvement. If I didn't know it had a turbo, I wouldn't have ever noticed it driving. I am impressed with it. Although, I do know it is going to cost a bunch of money one day. The economy isn't there either. My 01 Marquis get's better mpg. On the other hand, the Escape will leave it in a cloud dust, too. However, I expect the big difference is the Marquis is very aerodynamic compared to the Escape. I'm pretty sure that flat back window that eats washer fluid, if you want to see through it, drags a ton of air.

I find the new stuff interesting, but I'm not totally sold on it either.

Rick
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:19 PM
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Rick
I looked at the Coyote. It’s reasonably priced, emissions compliant possibly, but as you say doesn’t have the have the lumpy idle, that comes from an engine that’s not optimised at the bottom end. The Coyote doesn’t have this characteristic because, thanks to its ECU and variable valve timing it runs ideally everywhere in the rev range. It’s why it’s economical too. But I’m guessing before long, somebody will make a dial in unit, that’ll enable you to change the sound.
For me though and I’m no expert, but based on the attached drawing the practical issue is that it’s simply just too wide. At 29”, it’s 2” wider than the FE that’s already a challenge to get the hot air past and out.
Also the Cobra is an icon from the past. Taking away its distinctive barely running idle sound, maybe for some of us, just not what we were seeking.
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Last edited by AC Ventura; 02-10-2019 at 02:26 PM..
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