New Cobra buyer - Questions - Driving Them...

[Jim Vander Wal]

It's not the car, it's the clutch. Superformace cars are or should be all hydraulic. Hyd master and hyd slave or hyd throw-out. I've never seen or heard of anything other than a hydraulic system installed in one.

There are a variety of clutch/pressure plate options depending on preferences and required torque ratings. Driving type & style will make some difference in the unit selected. There will be great differences in pedal pressure depending on the unit.

It could also be that the hydraulic system has degraded. Changing the master cylinder is a PITA as it's behind the brake system but doable. The slave cylinder is easy from under the car. Bleeding the system isn't particularly difficult and will gravity bleed.

You can change a Superformance clutch & trans through the trans tunnel & interior, no need to pull the motor. You'll have to break the tunnel sealant and carpet loose, this isn't usually fun.

Superformance cars will generally hold their value better as indicated in earlier responses.

Jim

[AdamIsAdam]

Thanks. Yea, this makes sense. It's funny, because I was trying to compare the overall quality and driving feel of the Superformance to the Factory Five to see if I thought it was worth the difference in cost.

The car drove fine, felt underwhelming in terms of power surprisingly, even though it ran well (no clutch slipping or anything like that, just not "Cobra" strong). The clutch was stiff obviously. The interior under the dash was a little bit of a wiring mess, the panel above my knees was loose. The car didn't start without a jump even though it was cranking. And then took a while to fill the carb bowls and fire. But once on, ran ok, especially for a car that sat so long.

Oh but the wiper WASHER worked! LOL. That was funny when the broker hit that switch by accident. Everything worked as far as I could tell.

Overall, I didn't see it being worth $65k vs the $45k or so I can spend for a similar FFR. So that's sort of my dilemma. Is a Superformance or ERA worth a $15-25k price difference over a well built Factory Five? That's over 40% more money to buy. How will depreciation affect both? Enough to get back (or not lose) the purchase price? Meaning, if I compare spending $65k vs $45k car in 5 years, what's the ROI on both?

I'm looking at one FFR locally that was fully built by the FFR factory, so it's professionally built and that can be documented. If I got it for $45k, is that a smarter buy than a $65k Superformance?

Again, I am fully aware that this is a hobby and not my 401k. We are all on the same page there. I just want to make the above comparison and welcome input from those who have been in this market longer than I.

Thanks!

[MKS427]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

Thanks.

The car drove fine, felt underwhelming in terms of power surprisingly

I'm looking at one FFR locally that was fully built by the FFR factory, so it's professionally built and that can be documented. If I got it for $45k, is that a smarter buy than a $65k Superformance?

Thanks!

The smarter buy can only be determined through hindsight. You might look at which one you know you will be happy with, and hope you don't end up upside down in the end. You have to determine, if you compromise, will you be happy with what you have?

The 350 horse 351W is a budget motor and the reason for the underwhelming performance. Given the engine, it may not sell for 65K, but no guarantees. You may ask how low they are willing to go, if it's your first choice. Good news is, a 550-580 hp 427 Dart will bolt right in, but you're spending GOOD money to upgrade. You could upgrade the 351W to a 408 stroker, 500-550 (budget-high end) hp, a great cost effective alternative. Some people will build a 427 stroker in a 351W, but that is something I would not recommend.

Does the FFR have a Coyote? I've heard good things, but no first hand experience.

Good luck

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

Is a Superformance or ERA worth a $15-25k price difference over a well built Factory Five?

A lot of people can't visually recognize the difference between a FFR, SPF, or an ERA. To them, there would be no difference, and that's fine. To others, the difference is marked. The older FFRs have a very pronounced posterior, SPFs have their own eccentricities, ERAs have rectangular frames (instead of round ones). Some actually prefer the differences, others don't. The hips, fenders, and stances of the three cars are totally different but, if you can't see them, then it doesn't matter. If all three were parked side by side, almost anyone could spot some of the obvious differences, but not unless they were side by side. Some of the big differences that might jump out are the curves of the body itself, some of the smaller differences are things like the direction of the wipers, whether the pedals are floor mounted, the angle of the radiator, the angle of the windshield, etc. From a performance perspective, there are plenty of track quality FFR builds out there that will run circles around my FE powered ERA. But if you don't know what an FE is, or why it's important, then it doesn't matter. When it comes to performance, if the car "wows you," then that's what you want -- and it doesn't matter what's under the hood or what the car looks like. Would you pay an extra five grand for 6 pin drive hubs that you can't even see? How about an outboard braked IRS rear? An extra grand for a reverse rotating Smiths speedo? What about fitted side curtains? If you can't spot the differences, or if they don't matter to you, then you shouldn't pay for them.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by patrickt

A lot of people can't visually recognize the difference between a FFR, SPF, or an ERA. To them, there would be no difference, and that's fine. To others, the difference is marked. The older FFRs have a very pronounced posterior, SPFs have their own eccentricities, ERAs have rectangular frames (instead of round ones). Some actually prefer the differences, others don't. The hips, fenders, and stances of the three cars are totally different but, if you can't see them, then it doesn't matter. If all three were parked side by side, almost anyone could spot some of the obvious differences, but not unless they were side by side. Some of the big differences that might jump out are the curves of the body itself, some of the smaller differences are things like the direction of the wipers, whether the pedals are floor mounted, the angle of the radiator, the angle of the windshield, etc. From a performance perspective, there are plenty of track quality FFR builds out there that will run circles around my FE powered ERA. But if you don't know what an FE is, or why it's important, then it doesn't matter. When it comes to performance, if the car "wows you," then that's what you want -- and it doesn't matter what's under the hood or what the car looks like. Would you pay an extra five grand for 6 pin drive hubs that you can't even see? How about an outboard braked IRS rear? An extra grand for a reverse rotating Smiths speedo? What about fitted side curtains? If you can't spot the differences, or if they don't matter to you, then you shouldn't pay for them.

Excellent reply. I did see, learn, figure out many of those factors. I weighed them all, plus one more not mentioned: safety inherent in the design of each car.

From what I can tell, FFR's frame in the MKIV is superior here, with front and rear crumple zones, plus that new X bracing on the side for some side impact protection. Something seemingly 100% absent on most other frames I've seen that are boxed and you basically sit atop them.

The MKIV did improve the rear end looks, as you indicated. I like it but it did take me a while to learn to spot the difference.

pin drive and true spinners are VERY cool IMO, as is the reverse sweep speedo and other touches.

As you can tell, I'm leaning towards finding a well built FFR. To me, what Superformance has going for it, is the consistency of a factory build (and ERA's built at ERA).

See where i'm leaning?

[patrickt]

Regarding safety, there pretty much isn't any. They're like motorcycles. The biggest danger on these cars is whacking your head on the roll bar -- hard. BFT to the head is what has killed more than a couple guys on this forum. In fact, about three years ago we had a guy showing off his Cobra in the country club parking lot. He slid in to the curb, hit his head against the roll bar, and died on the way to the hospital. The car barely had a mark on it. All in the country club parking lot. If you can touch your head to the roll bar, then you'd be smart to pad it.

[g8rnbft]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

Thanks. Yea, this makes sense. It's funny, because I was trying to compare the overall quality and driving feel of the Superformance to the Factory Five to see if I thought it was worth the difference in cost.

The car drove fine, felt underwhelming in terms of power surprisingly, even though it ran well (no clutch slipping or anything like that, just not "Cobra" strong). The clutch was stiff obviously. The interior under the dash was a little bit of a wiring mess, the panel above my knees was loose. The car didn't start without a jump even though it was cranking. And then took a while to fill the carb bowls and fire. But once on, ran ok, especially for a car that sat so long.

Oh but the wiper WASHER worked! LOL. That was funny when the broker hit that switch by accident. Everything worked as far as I could tell.

Overall, I didn't see it being worth $65k vs the $45k or so I can spend for a similar FFR. So that's sort of my dilemma. Is a Superformance or ERA worth a $15-25k price difference over a well built Factory Five? That's over 40% more money to buy. How will depreciation affect both? Enough to get back (or not lose) the purchase price? Meaning, if I compare spending $65k vs $45k car in 5 years, what's the ROI on both?

I'm looking at one FFR locally that was fully built by the FFR factory, so it's professionally built and that can be documented. If I got it for $45k, is that a smarter buy than a $65k Superformance?

Again, I am fully aware that this is a hobby and not my 401k. We are all on the same page there. I just want to make the above comparison and welcome input from those who have been in this market longer than I.

Thanks!

FFR owner here - and I seriously doubt documentation of a FFR built car. It just doesn't happen. Not even a "roller" - much less a "driver".

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by g8rnbft

FFR owner here - and I seriously doubt documentation of a FFR built car. It just doesn't happen. Not even a "roller" - much less a "driver".

It's true. They built the car for a charity auction. After seeing the car, I spoke with Tony Zullo at FFR personally to confirm this, since he is the one who actually built the car. He said they build it in the factory first, then take it apart, ship it to TN to put it back together again on the golf course with the FedEx pilots, to be auctioned off for charity. (I presume they shipped it via FedEx LOL)

I have tons of proof, but how about this for proof:
https://youtu.be/xWj7I4Q3ReU

At 1:40 you can see the car in question.

[g8rnbft]

Ask FFR what VIN # is on the MSO. FFR does not meet Federal Standards to market "automobiles".

But - have it your way. Don't mean to be argumentative on the issue, just wanted you to not be hoodwinked by an unscrupulous seller.

[MKS427]

Originally Posted by g8rnbft

Ask FFR what VIN # is on the MSO. FFR does not meet Federal Standards to market "automobiles".

But - have it your way. Don't mean to be argumentative on the issue, just wanted you to not be hoodwinked by an unscrupulous seller.

The law changed a couple of years ago, so FFR may now qualify to do up to 300 or 350 complete cars per year now. However, they may decline due to liability issues. Regardless, companies that sell "rollers" have had a work around in place for quite some time.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by g8rnbft

FFR owner here - and I seriously doubt documentation of a FFR built car. It just doesn't happen. Not even a "roller" - much less a "driver".

BTW, how do you like your FFR? Any tips/suggestions for me as I shop for one?

[g8rnbft]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

BTW, how do you like your FFR? Any tips/suggestions for me as I shop for one?

I love it - have 30,000 miles on it in four years. Pushing right at 400 hp out of a stroked (347) 302.

I was at Daytona Continental race the first time Shelby showed up with Cobras! Only took me 50 years to get mine.

I am available to discuss anytime - shoot me a PM!

[Alfa02]

Adam, if you would like to PM me, I can get you in touch with our seller here. The car is a 2004 SPF, 392 Ford crate motor, TKO-600, Wildwood in front, Red with White Stripes, 930 miles. You could get it for say 40K, (You could even fly back here, cheap airfare) have it shipped back, even if everything leak's, you wouldn't have 20K more into it. Just a thought, I also know of a JCF 427 bodied car, 351, TKO-600, Red, 1600 miles for 30-35K in Ore. Cheers Tom. We have 4-5 SPF guys here that have owned their cars for 10+years, if you would like to talk to them.

[AdamIsAdam]

Originally Posted by MKS427

The smarter buy can only be determined through hindsight. You might look at which one you know you will be happy with, and hope you don't end up upside down in the end. You have to determine, if you compromise, will you be happy with what you have?

The 350 horse 351W is a budget motor and the reason for the underwhelming performance. Given the engine, it may not sell for 65K, but no guarantees. You may ask how low they are willing to go, if it's your first choice. Good news is, a 550-580 hp 427 Dart will bolt right in, but you're spending GOOD money to upgrade. You could upgrade the 351W to a 408 stroker, 500-550 (budget-high end) hp, a great cost effective alternative. Some people will build a 427 stroker in a 351W, but that is something I would not recommend.

Does the FFR have a Coyote? I've heard good things, but no first hand experience.

Good luck

I would expect to NOT be needing a new motor if I'm spending $65k otherwise I'd do this brand new and order a roller.

The FFR is not a Coyote. I can't bring myself to do that. It may drive great, but opening that hood and seeing plastic is NOT my idea of a Cobra. Sorry. Besides, I've got a 2018 GT350 in the garage, so I can get my fix of modern muscle that way. (BTW, note that the Voodoo motor comes from the factor sans plastic engine cover, like g-d intended )

Originally Posted by Alfa02

Adam, if you would like to PM me, I can get you in touch with our seller here. The car is a 2004 SPF, 392 Ford crate motor, TKO-600, Wildwood in front, Red with White Stripes, 930 miles. You could get it for say 40K, (You could even fly back here, cheap airfare) have it shipped back, even if everything leak's, you wouldn't have 20K more into it. Just a thought, I also know of a JCF 427 bodied car, 351, TKO-600, Red, 1600 miles for 30-35K in Ore. Cheers Tom. We have 4-5 SPF guys here that have owned their cars for 10+years, if you would like to talk to them.

PM sent. I'm interested.

[AdamIsAdam]

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well that's really f'ed up!

I plan to put some sort of high back seat in the car, just for that reason; well, more like for whiplash. Maybe Miata seat or a race bucket. But that's what scares me most about my `64 GTO, low back seats. I sit at a red light praying the 17 year old approaching from behind is paying more attention to me than SnapChat!

[Jim Vander Wal]

OK, I'll try to not get in too much trouble.

$65k is probably high but I haven't been watching in a few years since leaving the SPF community and moving to FFR.

Price. Have you priced a new SPF? With FFRs you have time, parts, body work & paint. Both assuming new builds.

At one time the larger percentage of SPF owners installed a 351 based motor often at 400+ c.i. rather than the 289/302 based motors. There's a huge group that have 385 series 460/520 and larger motors with a bunch of FEs of various sizes.

Better than a FFR, now that's a really loaded question and I'm not going there. What I will say is that the SPF build quality is more consistent and the general parts used are consistent within the chassis number ranges.

You didn't indicate the original year of construction and chassis number, it's located on the front upper crossmember for most cars; possibly harder to find on early ones. SPF owners use this to identify the build series and it turns out to be important.

A SPF will have IRS, coilovers, leather seats, carpet in interior and trunk. Wilwood brakes were used on cars after the first few (100 or so, not sure). Again, after the first few they had pin drive & spinner wheels, 15" standard. All were factory painted and usually included top, side curtains and tonneau although these may be options on newer cars. The trunk on a SPF is larger than in the FFR.

SPF cars are heavier than FFRs, due partially design and heavier (thicker) bodies.

FFRs have many good points. Generally less expensive, lighter, easer to adapt to personal preferences, a good chassis and suspension design according to the owners choice of the components. There are many owners that build exceptional cars but skill and attention levels very.

Find a car that meets your criteria. Purchase price is just the beginning.

Jim
Former owner of SPF 1855 & 2584
Current owner (under construction) of FFR 8885

[AdamIsAdam]

Mike,
I saw those cars, love that shade of red for sure.

I'm looking to spend much closer to $40k than $65k. But I don't want to buy "wrong," so to speak. That's why I was saying, is a $40k FFR a better deal than a $60+ SPF?

I'll keep looking. I LOVE getting the advice, so keep it coming, and THANKS!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by AdamIsAdam

I'm looking to spend much closer to $40k than $65k. But I don't want to buy "wrong," so to speak.

I have not seen a lot of nice $40k cars. Every now and then it does happen, so finding one is not impossible... but damn close to it.

[AdamIsAdam]

I understand and do not take it to be argumentative. I verified the VIN when I called.

My guess is that they sent/sold the kit to the charity, then the volunteers assembled it and auctioned it off. The person who won the auction brought it back to NY where he drove it for 2 years without ever titling it. I think he either had a dealer plate or just threw on other plates illegally. But the consigning dealer who has it now said he would handle titling it properly in the name of the new buyer. That would, of course, be a condition of sale.

The problem is, the guy really wants $50k for it. (even more). But I think it's worth low to mid 40's.

The car is brand new basically. It's got 1,400 miles, the paint is perfect. But it's a low end build in terms of the parts: Blueprint crate 306cid/370hp motor. TKO500, 4 link 3.55 Moser rear. 18" wheels/tires with track tires. ALL parts were brand new. No heater, wipers or other options.

So what's that worth?

[jhv48]

With that drive train, $40k at the most. The FFR’s that actually sell for $50k plus will have IRS, 500+ hp, a TKO 600, and custom paint and lots of upgrades.
This Build is a straight forward entry level kit.
My first FFR had a 302. Fun car but two years later I moved up to a SPF with 550 hp. Much better street car. More solid and much faster.
Happy hunting.