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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2021, 07:19 AM
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Default Those of you with higher HP FE engines - what oil do you run?

Yup, I know - "Oh no, another oil thread!"

My reason is this - I don't believe oil is a one size fits all. A Cobra with a 5.0 taken as is out of a Mustang will need a different oil than a built to the limit race Windsor, which will need a different oil from an engine like mine, etc.

That said, I'd like some opinions from guys who have an engine build similar to mine, or if I am lucky enough one of the pros on here like Brent might even chime in. I live in Houston, where it's hot, but at least its humid hot. I don't drive the car much when it's chilly out, for all three weeks that we have that. My FE is, as most go, on the fairly radical side. Here's the specs that I think might be pertinenet to the question at hand:

BBM cast iron FE block
BBM cylinder heads
RPM forged crankshaft
Crower forged connecting rods - 6.625” length
Custom CP forged pistons - final compression ratio is about 11.5:1
Custom Total Seal rings
4.345” bore, 4.375” stroke - 520 cu. in.
Blueprinted Melling oil pump
Canton screen windage tray
Milodon road racing oil pan
Solid roller cam - .735” lift.
Crower Enduamax bushed solid roller lifters
T&D race paired shaft rocker system
Smith Bros. pushrods
Ford Holley BC/BD 710 CFM carbs
BBM Tunnel Wedge intake
Cometic head gaskets
FAST (formerly Crane) distributor
Timing 32 deg. total
NGK BKR6E spark plugs
I don't know bearing type and clearances, which I suppose is important to the question.

I had some work done on the car recently, (the oil pan didn't have a bung on it for the oil temp sensor) and the guy who did the work, (I don't weld) who does fantastic work by the way, had to drain the oil and when he did he refilled with synthetic. The engine only has about 50 miles on it, so I'm not thinking that it's a good time for synthetic right now. I'm still not using the car because it's not 100% done yet, so there is very little if any use on the engine with the synthetic in there. Given the weather here, which is typically hot, and the engine specs above, what oil do you guys suggest I use? Also, while we're here, those of you with remote oil filters and remote oil coolers, with all the lines involved in all that, how do you get all the old oil out of the lines and cooler when changng the oil? If I pull the synthetic out, which I'm guessing I'll have to do, I'd like to get it all out, or at least as much as possible, from the cooler and remote oil filter and oil cooler lines. I seem to remember reading that dino oil and synthetic don't mix very well.

I'd appreciate some thoughts and input on this. And yes, sorry for starting yet another oil thread.
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Old 11-27-2021, 07:31 AM
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Vr1 20-50
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Old 11-27-2021, 07:56 AM
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VR 1 Dino oil for break in and then go to Amsoil synthetic . We have similar engines except mine is 482 cubes and aluminum block , solid roller etc and I do go to 6700 rpm every now and then .
Blair Patrick did my engine ( lives fairly close to me ) and he recommends and uses either VR1 20W-50 and more recently , Amsoil full synthetic after break in .
Amsoil was the oil all contestants had to use at the last Engine Masters competition , which Blair won again with his prepped 390 FE .

He told me that when they pulled his engine down for inspection , there was zero wear and he just put the bearings etc back in .... said he was impressed with the oil.

One thing I like is the max temp on that oil . On the track , I sometimes see 220 degrees and the Amsoil loves high temps . I`m in SC and we see Summer temps in my area in the upper 90`s fairly often .
I use Amsoil Signature Series synthetic 5W-50 as recommended , hard to find sometimes but worth it .
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Old 11-27-2021, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey View Post
Yup, I know - "Oh no, another oil thread!"

My reason is this - I don't believe oil is a one size fits all. A Cobra with a 5.0 taken as is out of a Mustang will need a different oil than a built to the limit race Windsor, which will need a different oil from an engine like mine, etc.

That said, I'd like some opinions from guys who have an engine build similar to mine, or if I am lucky enough one of the pros on here like Brent might even chime in. I live in Houston, where it's hot, but at least its humid hot. I don't drive the car much when it's chilly out, for all three weeks that we have that. My FE is, as most go, on the fairly radical side. Here's the specs that I think might be pertinenet to the question at hand:

BBM cast iron FE block
BBM cylinder heads
RPM forged crankshaft
Crower forged connecting rods - 6.625” length
Custom CP forged pistons - final compression ratio is about 11.5:1
Custom Total Seal rings
4.345” bore, 4.375” stroke - 520 cu. in.
Blueprinted Melling oil pump
Canton screen windage tray
Milodon road racing oil pan
Solid roller cam - .735” lift.
Crower Enduamax bushed solid roller lifters
T&D race paired shaft rocker system
Smith Bros. pushrods
Ford Holley BC/BD 710 CFM carbs
BBM Tunnel Wedge intake
Cometic head gaskets
FAST (formerly Crane) distributor
Timing 32 deg. total
NGK BKR6E spark plugs
I don't know bearing type and clearances, which I suppose is important to the question.

I had some work done on the car recently, (the oil pan didn't have a bung on it for the oil temp sensor) and the guy who did the work, (I don't weld) who does fantastic work by the way, had to drain the oil and when he did he refilled with synthetic. The engine only has about 50 miles on it, so I'm not thinking that it's a good time for synthetic right now. I'm still not using the car because it's not 100% done yet, so there is very little if any use on the engine with the synthetic in there. Given the weather here, which is typically hot, and the engine specs above, what oil do you guys suggest I use? Also, while we're here, those of you with remote oil filters and remote oil coolers, with all the lines involved in all that, how do you get all the old oil out of the lines and cooler when changng the oil? If I pull the synthetic out, which I'm guessing I'll have to do, I'd like to get it all out, or at least as much as possible, from the cooler and remote oil filter and oil cooler lines. I seem to remember reading that dino oil and synthetic don't mix very well.

I'd appreciate some thoughts and input on this. And yes, sorry for starting yet another oil thread.
What did your engine builder recommend? That will provide some insight into bearing clearances, but builder should be able to provide those anyway.
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Old 11-27-2021, 11:05 AM
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No one here will be able to just spit out an oil or viscosity without knowing how the engine was setup. Call/email Blair and ask him what he wants you to run.

Just as an aside, most "good" hydraulic roller lifters will not run on 40-50W on the hot side of the viscosity. I know you have solid roller lifters, but just saying this for the benefit of everyone else. A Morel lifter, for instance, will poop its pants trying to run with thicker oil like that.
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Old 11-27-2021, 11:13 AM
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I use a 0W-40 during cold weather and 0W-60, when you can find it, during summer months. When the 0 grade oils are hard to find I substitute a 10 weight alternative, i.e. 10W-40.

Your oil clearance will in large part be determined by the bearing clearances on the rods and mains. The oil system is essentially a controlled leak. Like a garden hose driving two sprinklers the total nozzle area of the two sprinklers and the hose's water pressure determines the total water flow. If one sprinkler has more nozzle area it will artificially lower the hose pressure supplying a reduced pressure and volume to the sprinkler farther away.

The same is true of our rod and main bearing clearances. Rod bearings are oiled off the mains and the mains get first dibs (so to speak) on the oil from the main oil galley that is delivered to the engine. Like the single hose with two sprinklers the mains are that first sprinkler in the oiling food chain. What ever does not leak out the mains is directed up through the main to rod oil drilling in the crank for the rods.

Tightening up clearances on the mains drives more oil to the rods and less to the mains and vice versa. A good rule of thumb is 0.0015" to 0.002" on the mains and 0.002" on the rods with a sufficiently high volume pump and high pressure relief spring so that everybody gets an adequate volume of oil to support the hydrodynamic wedge that protects all the rotating parts.

My engine is a modern aluminum block OHC variety so I have all the challenges we have already spoken about and I also have to keep four cams lubed so I don't kill cams and heads. My cold main clearance is 0.0015" and my rod clearances are 0.002".

At first glance it would appear Ford attempted to force more oil upstairs with the tight main clearances. The growth of the aluminum block after warm up makes the main clearance comparable to a cast iron block at operating temp.

Melling has a good video that tells the story of bearing clearances and oil flow, click here => Melling on Clearance and Volume

My pump is an aftermarket gear pump from Raceline (Racelinepumps.com). I use a pump gear that is 1.45 inches long. The pump is driven at about half crank speed. I also use an external pressure regulator to regulate the oil pressure to about 70 psi at idle and about 130 psi or so at 7000 rpm.

I choose the higher pressures to protect the cams and heads which are at the end of the lubrication food chain, so to speak. I always use ProLong for engine protection at cold start.

Ford did not supply these engines with this kind of oil delivery in their original OEM condition. The OEM engines also tend to get a noisy valve train as they age. Regular oil changes and more than adequate oil supply can extend the life of the valve train pieces in an OHC application.

On a pushrod application the adequate oil supply to the top end keeps rockers and rocker shafts in good condition and a quiet valve train again. For years there have been various techniques used to restrict oil to the rockers.

There are two valid reasons to do this. The first is once up there you need to be able to get the oil back to the crankcase. OEM drainback holes can be challenged if the oil supply to the top is too great. The second is, a racing oil pump can pump the pan dry more easily than a standard volume pump. Once the pan goes dry your bearings go away — sooo any oil absolutely not needed like at the rockers would get restricted by installing various size jets in the oil delivery drillings. On drag cars the restrictors arguably might be a good idea. Other applications probably not so much.

NASCAR engines that need to last 500 miles do not use oil restrictors to the rockers. In fact some engine builders flood the rocker covers submerging the valve train in oil both for lubrication and cooling. These engines also have impressive drainage systems to cycle the oil back to the crankcase.

Soooo, big pump, small pump, low pressure, high pressure and oil weight?

For me, I like high volume, high pressure and 0W weight synthetics after break-in. The high pressure costs me maybe 5HP or so to drive the pump but I have way more power than I can reliably put on the ground anyhow.


Ed
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Last edited by eschaider; 11-28-2021 at 02:54 AM.. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
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Old 11-27-2021, 12:21 PM
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My builder recommended Mobile 1 10-30 when built in 2004.
Aluminum 427w approx 535hp.
As others have indicated there are many factors that determine what should be used.
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Old 11-27-2021, 04:55 PM
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Mobil 1 0W50 Racing oil.....in 496” FE aluminum Shelby block....
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Old 11-28-2021, 09:05 AM
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Brad Penn green oil. It has zinc in it and that is what a solid lifter motor needs.
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Old 11-28-2021, 09:41 AM
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Something that is not intuitively obvious is that the Mobil racing oil in 0W-50, like Morris uses, has among the highest ZDDP levels of any oil you can buy today. I believe the numbers are 1300 ppm possibly higher. This is very good for flat tappet cams and lifters.

Most of the oils once you get to the 0W-50 threshold will have higher ZDDP levels. FWIW (and it could be a lot) Mobil 1 seems to be the highest. Castrol used to offer a 0W-60 high zinc oil for super car applications but I haven't seen it for a while so the 0W-50 oils (especially Mobil 1) get the nod.

If you want to be certain research their zinc levels before buying. If the 50 and 60 weight viscosities leaves you a little timid, Mobil 1 also has a 0W-30 Racing oil with the same zinc levels in it.


Ed
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Old 11-28-2021, 10:01 AM
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The Brad Penn-Grad 1 oils have 1,500 ppm Zinc and up to 1,400 ppm Phosphorus content.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:15 AM
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For many years I've run Mobil 1 15W 50 in my Keith Kraft built aluminum block 482.
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Old 11-28-2021, 11:25 AM
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Oh for the days when the question was which 30wt oil manufacturer you'd use Texaco or Mobil or... that's what they ran you know
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Old 11-28-2021, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slither View Post
The Brad Penn-Grad 1 oils have 1,500 ppm Zinc and up to 1,400 ppm Phosphorus content.
You're right Slither. My commentary would indicate Mobil 1 does not have the highest. I. said it has among the highest because I did not want to check all commercially available oils. You also will find very few providers of 0W-50 or 10W-60 viscosities which is every bit as important. Even more significant check the chart in the next post and you will find that Mobil 1 0W-50 does have a zinc level in excess of 1300 ppm. In fact they represent it as exceeding 1800 PPM.

This search for the better lubricant is not about whose dog is bigger although it can feel that way. ZDDP is certainly one metric we want to pay attention to. Lubricatiing qualities at the elevated temperatures and pressures that racing engines (even old ones) are capable of producing is what the search for the best oil is all about. If you like Brad Penn by all means you should use it in your engine. Looking at the oil selection issue through a wider angle lens might cause others to choose differently.


Ed
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Old 11-28-2021, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
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For many years I've run Mobil 1 15W 50 in my Keith Kraft built aluminum block 482.
Although from my earlier commentary you could assume Mobil 1 0W-50 to have a lower zinc content it does not and it does have the 50 weight viscosity which is comparably as important in a high powered engine that the owner chooses to flex the muscles of from time to time.

Below is Mobil 1's representation of zinc levels they provide in various products they offer.



The other oil that fits into this category is the Castrol 10W-60 SuperCar Lubricant.


which is targeted at high end Euro supercars. I could have sworn I had purchased a 0W-60 version of the oil in the past but if I did, I can't find it today. In any event the 10W-60 alternative from Castrol is functionally similar but a little more viscous at lower temperatures.

Both choices and similar competitive offerings should serve most Cobra owners with high output engines quite well.



Ed
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Old 11-28-2021, 03:01 PM
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15-40 Rotella T in everything from 3hp Briggs to 700 hp. Cat and EVERYTHING inbetween. Gas, diesel or propane. We run thousands of hours each year and have NEVER had an oil related failure. We've never had an oil breakdown issue.
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Old 11-28-2021, 03:53 PM
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Are the higher Zinc/ZDDP levels important in hydro or solid roller lifter engines or are they only important to flat tappet engines?
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Old 11-28-2021, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 767Jockey View Post
Are the higher Zinc/ZDDP levels important in hydro or solid roller lifter engines or are they only important to flat tappet engines?
They tend to be a positive for all engines, Dave. The engines with the most to gain are the freshly built flat tappet engines. Even after a successful break-in the higher Zinc/ZDDP levels provide an extra margin of protection for the flat tappets.

The roller tappets either hydraulic or solid do not have the same susceptibility to break-in or operation failures that flat tappets have in low zinc/zddp environments. That said the higher zinc/ZDDP level lubricants do not do any harm to the roller style lifters.

The higher viscosities in the 40 / 50 /60 weight lubricants provide additional protection in high temperature, high load environments that the lower viscosity oils can not duplicate. A lower HP (say below 400) engine driven as a daily driver would load the bearing surfaces less than a large displacement 550 or 600HP engine capable of generating 600 or so ft/lbs of torque at 4000 to 5000 rpm.

That kind of torque can be impressively destructive in a hot engine at lower speeds with a low viscosity oil that is also skinny in the zinc/ZDDP categories. No need to take on additional risks if it is not necessary.


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Old 11-29-2021, 10:46 AM
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All great info guys, thank you!

Now for the other question - Now that I'm going to change the oil in this car for the first time, what do you guys do to get all the old oil out of the cooler and cooler/remote filter lines? I'd like to get every bit of the ynthetic that was mistakenly put in there out before I refill with the proper oil.

I was able to reach Blair Patrick, the builder who built the engine, and he's suggesting VR1 straight weight 30 or 40 for the first 3000 miles or so, then switch over to a good quality synthetic. He says the synthetic might inhibit proper ring sealing. Since a couple of you guys suggested VR1, and Blair does as well, I am going to go with that.
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
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I was able to reach Blair Patrick, the builder who built the engine, and he's suggesting VR1 straight weight 30 or 40 for the first 3000 miles or so, then switch over to a good quality synthetic. He says the synthetic might inhibit proper ring sealing. Since a couple of you guys suggested VR1, and Blair does as well, I am going to go with that.
See I told you straight 30.

That regimen is what Roush recommended on mine too.
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