Interesting "old" aluminum recreation

[PanameraPat]

Ahoy Gang. Sorry if this is a repeat. Tried to post this earlier tonight and I thought it posted, but now I don't see it. May just be my technology skills at work. I'm a newbie to the site.

Anyway, I'm looking for a bit of an education on a mid 80's aluminum body recreation. I haven't seen the car yet, but the original owner says the frame (and a jig and some frame tubing) was found outside the old AC plant. And that he talked AC (whoever was there in those days) into building him 4 MKIII rolling chassis. They were all the larger SC tubing. Of the original 4, he still has 2. Official registered VIN's are "02" and "04". He provided the power train after the cars were shipped to the US. I don't think the engines are 427, but are bored to more than this and coupled with 4 speed top loader. He says some original parts that were "left over", but mostly recreation parts.

Is it even possible that these frames and cars were built at the AC plant with those VIN's? From what I have seen, they look like extremally good replica's. but trying to get details from the old scratcher that still owns them is like pulling teeth, which makes me nervous.

He isn't representing them as "original csx cars" or anything like that, but clearly the history of a very good aluminum body recreation that was assembled in England and maybe even at the original AC plant is interesting to say the least.

Thoughts?

[twobjshelbys]

Need pictures

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by PanameraPat

Ahoy Gang. Sorry if this is a repeat. Tried to post this earlier tonight and I thought it posted, but now I don't see it. May just be my technology skills at work. I'm a newbie to the site.

Anyway, I'm looking for a bit of an education on a mid 80's aluminum body recreation. I haven't seen the car yet, but the original owner says the frame (and a jig and some frame tubing) was found outside the old AC plant. And that he talked AC (whoever was there in those days) into building him 4 MKIII rolling chassis. They were all the larger SC tubing. Of the original 4, he still has 2. Official registered VIN's are "02" and "04". He provided the power train after the cars were shipped to the US. I don't think the engines are 427, but are bored to more than this and coupled with 4 speed top loader. He says some original parts that were "left over", but mostly recreation parts.

Is it even possible that these frames and cars were built at the AC plant with those VIN's? From what I have seen, they look like extremally good replica's. but trying to get details from the old scratcher that still owns them is like pulling teeth, which makes me nervous.

He isn't representing them as "original csx cars" or anything like that, but clearly the history of a very good aluminum body recreation that was assembled in England and maybe even at the original AC plant is interesting to say the least.

Thoughts?

The jigs, frames, and body parts at the old AC plant were never "found outside the buildings" in Thames.

The rest of the story is more than suspect, but heck, you never know, maybe a door skin, or fender is legit, the rest, not likely.

Post pictures when you can, let's see what you have stumbled across, we can then go from there.

Bill S.

[PanameraPat]

Pics may take a while. It is not in the same town as I am and has been buried in storage for 20+ years at this point. I'm told one is a black cherry paint job with frenched in headlights and taillights. He said it won a "peoples choice" award at Pebble Beach back in the early 90's. I know there are a million replica's out there these days, but I would imagine there weren't that many well done aluminum bodied replica's in those days, so maybe some old timer knows of the car if it won an award at Pebble Beach (must have been some kind of replica class or something).

The owner also owned a few original's back in the day and had met Carroll a few times at various track events. He casually raced them all, which is why engines were bored out to larger CID.

I know it's all a bit of a fun guessing game until I can see them in person and get some pics. Once I do get there to see in person, what should I be looking for to get a better clue where they actually came from?

[767Jockey]

Anything having to do with AC past the producton era of the originals makes it sketchy. Any Cobra story involving "lost" and "found" chassis makes it sketchy. 02 and 04 VIN's make it sketchy. The presence of frenched in headlights and tail lights makes it sketchy. The thought of any replica Cobra having a spot on the lawn at Pebble Beach makes it sketchy. The story about a replica Cobra with frenched in headlights and tail lights winning anything at all at Pebble Beach makes it sketchy. This whole story has way too many questionable things in it. Could it be true? Sure, anything is possible, but if I were you I would proceed with the thought that the whole story is BS and go from there.

[PanameraPat]

Totally understand and agree. They are replica's for sure. But I would think a well done alloy replica from the 80's with correct SC frame could bring $200K even with no ties what-so-ever to Thames. So if it turns out to have some kind of tie or history, that could change value, right?

I believe the owner did the Frenching in of headlights and taillights after the car got to America. He wasn't saying that part was done in England. And that is only on the black cherry car. The other one he left as std trim around lights like every other Cobra out there.

I totally get that it is all suspicious, which is why I am here. Any advise on what to look for when I finally get to see the cars in person is appreciated.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by PanameraPat

Totally understand and agree. They are replica's for sure. But I would think a well done alloy replica from the 80's with correct SC frame could bring $200K even with no ties what-so-ever to Thames. So if it turns out to have some kind of tie or history, that could change value, right?

I believe the owner did the Frenching in of headlights and taillights after the car got to America. He wasn't saying that part was done in England. And that is only on the black cherry car. The other one he left as std trim around lights like every other Cobra out there.

I totally get that it is all suspicious, which is why I am here. Any advise on what to look for when I finally get to see the cars in person is appreciated.

200K buys a lot better than what you described, look at Kirkham Motorsports. Used these days, $130,000-$240,000
https://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/products.shtml

Keep in mind, that Kirkham also makes the body and chassis for the aluminum bodies, SAI continuation series cars.

Bill S.

[PanameraPat]

deleted duplicate post. Sorry about that.

[PanameraPat]

Oh, I am well aware of Kirkham. Totally agree that in terms of modern replica's, they are the best of the best. But do you have any advise on comparing quality and "originalness" of these two cars to Kirkham (or to actual original's for that matter).

This is an owner who owned original SC, original 427 street and others at the time he had these built. He has raced original's and these replica's (which he had built specifically to race against original comp cars). How can I tell if they are as nice as Kirkham or a much cheaper knock off that just happens to have alloy body?

I'm not arguing that they are something they are not. But I am trying to learn enough so that when I do go see them, I have enough knowledge to know the quality of build and original likeness (and to either confirm or debunk his claims about their origin). And to get some idea of value once I do see them.

If they turn out to be Kirkham/original quality, built in England, but MUCH more rare than Kirkham as this was before Kirkham was building in Poland, wouldn't they be at least equal in value to Kirkham? And more if there were a mid 80's tie to Thames in some way? Again, not arguing the point, just trying to understand how the community views "old alloy recreations" that are supposedly done to a very exact standard to original.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by PanameraPat

Oh, I am well aware of Kirkham. Totally agree that in terms of modern replica's, they are the best of the best. But do you have any advise on comparing quality and "originalness" of these two cars to Kirkham (or to actual original's for that matter).

This is an owner who owned original SC, original 427 street and others at the time he had these built. He has raced original's and these replica's (which he had built specifically to race against original comp cars). How can I tell if they are as nice as Kirkham or a much cheaper knock off that just happens to have alloy body?

I'm not arguing that they are something they are not. But I am trying to learn enough so that when I do go see them, I have enough knowledge to know the quality of build and original likeness (and to either confirm or debunk his claims about their origin). And to get some idea of value once I do see them.

If they turn out to be Kirkham/original quality, built in England, but MUCH more rare than Kirkham as this was before Kirkham was building in Poland, wouldn't they be at least equal in value to Kirkham? And more if there were a mid 80's tie to Thames in some way? Again, not arguing the point, just trying to understand how the community views "old alloy recreations" that are supposedly done to a very exact standard to original.

The problem I see right now is that you do not have access to the cars, you cannot take and post pictures of the cars, and really have no idea what the cars really are or are not. Until those very basic of items is addressed and overcome, there is nothing to assist you with. Especially not in attempting to compare fit, finish, and quality of one vs another.

As far as the "originalness" or "quality" of an original, again, words that are subject to intense scrutiny . For all we know, you have a Kirkham sourced body on a Factory Five sourced frame, or worse yet, an aluminum body from a source in southern Florida, who was there and gone in a short period of time.

Bill S.

[1985 CCX]

These cars are great as they have more stories than a can of Bush Beans.
Remember top dollar comes to cars that are accurate to the time period. With pics we can maybe help settle the value end, it only worth what someone will pay.
Frenched in light?? That hurts $$ as its hard to reverse.

80's would be Brian Angliss AC Period. A 427 MKIV (Lwt) does fetch KMS money but as one deviates from the MKIII build they too succome to less $$.
A MKIV is a great car, alloy bodies, Ford backed, and very well built but they are still mid 100's and slowly climbing but not KMS or CSX cont $.
Seems made in UK only matters for the 1000 series.

Post pics....

[PanameraPat]

Yup. Totally understand all that. Just hoping to learn a bit ahead of actual visit so that when I get there, I have some knowledge of what to look for (both good and bad). And what to take good pictures of to share with the community.

I believe this owner worked with Dave Kirkham a bit with one of his original's before the Poland factory was building replica's. So Dave may remember this owner and know something about where these 4 rigs came from.

[PanameraPat]

Not an MK IV. And owner also said Brian Angeles was not directly involved in the build (may have been involved in some parts). This owner said he didn't like the changes AutoKraft made in style to the MK IV and that he specifically had these made to MK III style and specs (including exact frame copy, which he "claims" was from an original jig).

Probably not...... But part of the fun of these cars is that the possibility kinda does exist. Especially for someone who was running in these racing circles in the early, mid and late 80's.

I am pretty sure the frame (wherever it came from) is a pretty close match. The owner was pretty specific in describing the larger tubes used for SC cars vs smaller std frame and how much difference it made on the track. It is a ladder tube frame with oversized tubes for sure. High level stuff in the pics I did see (but don't have) all looked right. No glovebox, backwards shifter for 4 speed toploader, proper wood steering wheel, knock off wheels looked period correct, interior looked like original's, etc.

How do I tell quality of alloy body? Certain thickness to be looking for? Obvious area's where lessor copies tend to show themselves? If the frame looks to be a very good copy, anything specific to look for to try to tell it apart from one made from original jig?

I completely get that everyone wants to see great pictures to lend an opinion as to how nice it is. But also looking for a little guidance myself so I know what to look for when I go look at it for the first time. This owner is not a young man anymore, but certainly knows his Cobra's way better than I, so I want to at least have enough knowledge to start to form my own opinion on the spot when I see it in person. Thanks again for any advise of what to look for and be wary of.

I can typically spot a replica vs original without a word, but of course a Kirkham or other really good recreation can be much harder to tell. And that is what I expect these are, which is why I am trying to dig a bit deeper.

[twobjshelbys]

I see "barn find dollar signs" flashing in front of someone's eyes. I wish people would stop trying to play the "rarity" game. Except for the originals, rarity isn't going to get you anything especially when it comes to one offs like these sound to be. These are not going to be cheap to buy and suddenly fund your retirement. For a reason.

The story of "someone found the bucks and tubes in the trash and AC agreed to make cars from them" also seems like fiction. No manufacturer is going to risk their status by doing that.

And, I wouldn't even think about writing a check without an on-site PPI and for the amount you think they're worth, a personal visit as I wouldn't take the word of a third party, especially from a foreign country. The PPI is just a test to see if the in-person visit is worth it. Are they in the US? If these are in England you've got to pay shipping and import duties.

Look elsewhere.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by PanameraPat

Not an MK IV. And owner also said Brian Angeles was not directly involved in the build (may have been involved in some parts). This owner said he didn't like the changes AutoKraft made in style to the MK IV and that he specifically had these made to MK III style and specs (including exact frame copy, which he "claims" was from an original jig).

Probably not...... But part of the fun of these cars is that the possibility kinda does exist. Especially for someone who was running in these racing circles in the early, mid and late 80's.

I am pretty sure the frame (wherever it came from) is a pretty close match. The owner was pretty specific in describing the larger tubes used for SC cars vs smaller std frame and how much difference it made on the track. It is a ladder tube frame with oversized tubes for sure. High level stuff in the pics I did see (but don't have) all looked right. No glovebox, backwards shifter for 4 speed toploader, proper wood steering wheel, knock off wheels looked period correct, interior looked like original's, etc.

How do I tell quality of alloy body? Certain thickness to be looking for? Obvious area's where lessor copies tend to show themselves? If the frame looks to be a very good copy, anything specific to look for to try to tell it apart from one made from original jig?

I completely get that everyone wants to see great pictures to lend an opinion as to how nice it is. But also looking for a little guidance myself so I know what to look for when I go look at it for the first time. This owner is not a young man anymore, but certainly knows his Cobra's way better than I, so I want to at least have enough knowledge to start to form my own opinion on the spot when I see it in person. Thanks again for any advise of what to look for and be wary of.

I can typically spot a replica vs original without a word, but of course a Kirkham or other really good recreation can be much harder to tell. And that is what I expect these are, which is why I am trying to dig a bit deeper.

The more I read your posts, the less interest I'm having, the story and back story of the owner just keeps changing, and getting better and better, as if a worm was stuck on a hook with a fish staring at it just inches away, or a carrot was being dangled in front of a large donkey who has not eaten in days...So close they can almost taste it, but still far enough away that it's of no concern.

I for one, will await some real documentation, along with some current, well lit, if not dusty pictures. Again, anything prior to those two important details, and you are just spinning your wheels and ours, as we need facts to assist, not innuendo.


Bill S.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

The more I read your posts, the less interest I'm having, the story and back story of the owner just keeps changing, and getting better and better, as if a worm was stuck on a hook with a fish staring at it just inches away, or a carrot was being dangled in front of a large donkey who has not eaten in days...So close they can almost taste it, but still far enough away that it's of no concern.

I for one, will await some real documentation, along with some current, well lit, if not dusty pictures. Again, anything prior to those two important details, and you are just spinning your wheels and ours, as we need facts to assist, not innuendo.


Bill S.

This is an example of "if it's too good to be true" happening in real time.

[PanameraPat]

Good advise. They are in the US. And I certainly don't intend to buy anything without inspection. And if they look "really good" to me, likely a professional inspection (maybe by someone on this forum as I do not know any "Cobra replica specialists" who could value something like this if it is accurate). They are replica's and I don't think the owner or anyone else is claiming anything but that they are replica's. If they are as accurate as the owner claims, maybe one could use the word recreation. Sounds to me that your opinion is that, even if very accurate to an original, lower market value than Kirkham due to the challenge of showing and proving the quality, which is exactly the challenge I face, so a very valid point.

Initially, I am just trying to get educated a bit before I look at them myself so I at least know what to look for to help determine my desire to spend some money finding and hiring someone with a lot more knowledge on something like this than me. And your opinion on "fair market value" of a "four car run" regardless of how good it is (or isn't) is valuable, so thanks again for that. Makes me smarter.

If they turn out to be nothing close to a VERY ACCURATE recreation, I'm not interested anyway. That should be easy to figure out on inspection even for an armature like me. Oversized ladder frame, hand made aluminum body (maybe a way to measure thickness of that aluminum?), gauges and interior that visually matches original, etc. etc. I understand that VERY ACCURATE alloy recreations can be purchased in $140K-$240K range (which is still A LOT more than just a few years ago) and with those there is a large enough run that quality is well known and documented. Believe me, a Kirkham is one hell of a car and worthy of the CXS honors for closest thing today to a true recreation! But if these turn out to be anything close to that level of accuracy, built in England 40 years ago, they are certainly interesting if nothing else........

The other issue will be storage for 25+ years without being started or run, so that part alone could be huge $$ for the right person to being them back. Who knows. But from what I was told of the cars (and know of the owner's history), I do believe I will find proper sized ladder frame, high quality hand built aluminum body and a very "proper" looking replica. I have no idea of condition. Or what a very good one-off alloy replica from that era would be worth.

[PanameraPat]

I keep "double posting". Sorry about that. Not intentional.

[Alfa02]

I looked up "People's Choice Award" @ Pebble Beach" here's an article from The Classic Car Journal. https://journal.classiccars.com/2018...-choice-award/

[PanameraPat]

Sorry. I don't think he meant to imply a Peoples choice award for "all of Pebble beach" type award. Clearly there is no way any replica would win anything like that. More like among a small group of Cobra's or maybe even just replica's type thing. Or some sub group or club that was there type thing. Probably my miss communication more than his to me.

I appreciate the feedback and make no mistake, I am as skeptical as everyone else here. For good reason. Mainly looking for things beyond "frame correctness", aluminum thickness and quality of fit, correct looking parts, etc. to help me identify how good (or how crappy) of a replica it actually is when I see it.

I'm enough of a car guy to quickly recognize obvious replica's, fiberglass bodies, newer looking knock-off's, wrong shifters/transmissions and the likes. I just don't know if I am qualified to really determine the difference between a "good looking aluminum replica" and a very good recreation. And tougher yet, put a value to it based on how accurate it turns out to be (one can only hope).

Maybe it will be a quick visit and quick disappointment. Happens. But the seller has a pretty interesting history with some pretty interesting cars, so worth looking in the rabbit hole to see what bites ya......