"The Black Ghost" SCAM ???

[twobjshelbys]

1. Everyone wants to think that auctions are rigged and that the seller has shill bidders arranged by the seller or that the auction house is "in on it". Yet after two decades of watching Barrett Jackson and Mecum on cars that went for screwy money (either high or low) there has been no proof of those allegations. People are absolutely the worst secret keepers. If such collusion were really happening you'd have heard about it by now. There are a few "a friend of a cousin that knows someone that saw the auction is absolutely positive that George and Sam ran up the bid" but in no circumstance has an individual supposedly directly involved ever admitted it. So this remains an old wives tale.

The only auction shenanigans I am aware of happened at Barrett Jackson when someone was selling a Bugatti Veyron. The final bidder got the car for an absurdly low price. I was in Craig's sky box when having not been on the podium at the time came on and said that the bidder "lied" - he didn't have the money, was caught in the moment, and figured he'd get outbidded and was summarily evicted for life. Craig re-opened the auction with the previous bidder having first dibs but he rejected resuming the bidding and Craig ended up buying the car personally for the shill's bid. It still shows up at the Scottsdale auction with a BJ wrap on it - it's a "company car" and written off

2. Eleanors get screwy money. Just look at the last few that went at Barrett Jackson (I think there were 3 or 4). Now that they are "legitimate" (business wise, of course they're a copy of nothing) the reluctance to put them out there is gone and they still get top dollar. There's no logic behind it except that they are cool looking.

3. According to the feds capital gains ARE due on profit of auto sales (as they are due on art works - if you find a rare bowl for $5 at a garage sale and sell it for $5M, you owe capital gains.) Sell a car for a profit, you owe capital gains (but they depreciate like a rock and you don't get a deduction, unless you're a business.) Maybe some of Biden's 80,000 armed investigators can track down some and audit them.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

1. Everyone wants to think that auctions are rigged and that the seller has shill bidders arranged by the seller or that the auction house is "in on it". Yet after two decades of watching Barrett Jackson and Mecum on cars that went for screwy money (either high or low) there has been no proof of those allegations. People are absolutely the worst secret keepers. If such collusion were really happening you'd have heard about it by now. There are a few "a friend of a cousin that knows someone that saw the auction is absolutely positive that George and Sam ran up the bid" but in no circumstance has an individual supposedly directly involved ever admitted it. So this remains an old wives tale.

The only auction shenanigans I am aware of happened at Barrett Jackson when someone was selling a Bugatti Veyron. The final bidder got the car for an absurdly low price. I was in Craig's sky box when having not been on the podium at the time came on and said that the bidder "lied" - he didn't have the money, was caught in the moment, and figured he'd get outbidded and was summarily evicted for life. Craig re-opened the auction with the previous bidder having first dibs but he rejected resuming the bidding and Craig ended up buying the car personally for the shill's bid. It still shows up at the Scottsdale auction with a BJ wrap on it - it's a "company car" and written off

2. Eleanors get screwy money. Just look at the last few that went at Barrett Jackson (I think there were 3 or 4). Now that they are "legitimate" (business wise, of course they're a copy of nothing) the reluctance to put them out there is gone and they still get top dollar. There's no logic behind it except that they are cool looking.

3. According to the feds capital gains ARE due on profit of auto sales (as they are due on art works - if you find a rare bowl for $5 at a garage sale and sell it for $5M, you owe capital gains.) Sell a car for a profit, you owe capital gains (but they depreciate like a rock and you don't get a deduction, unless you're a business.) Maybe some of Biden's 80,000 armed investigators can track down some and audit them.

Well, I have a bit of history with a shill bidder and I going at a 1970 Boss 302 track car at a certain BJ auction......Back in the pre 2010 auction period, yet still televised, I'm bidding against someone in a side skybox, can't see who it is, but bidding was at no reserve........I bowed out, and find out I was bidding against one of the people who I watched clean the car with the seller several days earlier......Car was up on Ebay 6 weeks later, with the same owner/seller......So, while it does not happen often, it does happen...In fact, if you read the T's and C's of the auction, BJ reserves the right to bid the car up to the hidden reserve.....Yes, it's in black and white buried within the terms and conditions.......So again, while it does not happen often, to say it does not happen at all, even in todays day and age, is a bit naive......

Bill S.

[1985 CCX]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Well, I have a bit of history with a shill bidder and I going at a 1970 Boss 302 track car at a certain BJ auction......Back in the pre 2010 auction period, yet still televised, I'm bidding against someone in a side skybox, can't see who it is, but bidding was at no reserve........I bowed out, and find out I was bidding against one of the people who I watched clean the car with the seller several days earlier......Car was up on Ebay 6 weeks later, with the same owner/seller......So, while it does not happen often, it does happen...In fact, if you read the T's and C's of the auction, BJ reserves the right to bid the car up to the hidden reserve.....Yes, it's in black and white buried within the terms and conditions.......So again, while it does not happen often, to say it does not happen at all, even in todays day and age, is a bit naive......

Bill S.

I too know of two cars that sold high (shill) and then friends bought the next day at a much reduced cost as they were the next bidder down.
Not sure its a scam, just creative selling on TV.

[patrickt]

I dunnno, if I spent a million bucks on a bag of magic beans, thinking that it would let me climb a giant stalk to get bags of gold coins and a magic harp, I would continue to believe in that for quite some time, even if the stalk never appeared. Maybe even forever.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

I too know of two cars that sold high (shill) and then friends bought the next day at a much reduced cost as they were the next bidder down.
Not sure its a scam, just creative selling on TV.

When an item is being sold without reserve, and you are outbid (IE: you are the next highest bidder), and the gavel comes down, and the car is proclaimed as sold, both live on TV, and on their website......Yet comes available from the same owner/seller as was presented at the auction, but is still marked as successfully sold, with a seller/owner not stating anything like "the high bidder could not follow through with his/her bid", what would you call it? Then again, what would you then call it when the high bidder turns out to be the seller/owners employee, who came to Florida to help him clean and detail the car for the auction?

Similar situation, but a seller of a certain high value car, uses his wifes Ebay account to bid up a "no reserve" vehicle on Ebay....An account the seller had used in the distant past to sell with before he opened his own user account, with the same "terms and conditions" verbiage, including contact names and numbers....Well, back in the day, before Ebay started to mask off user names, there were easy ways to see such things.....Now of course you can still see a bit, if you know what to look for, and where, just not the actual user names.

Bill S.