"The Black Ghost" SCAM ???

[Alfa02]

First this has nothing to do with Cobras, but it does have to do with Collector cars (Value, Auctions). I'm only writing this to get other members opinion. Never heard of this "Black Ghost" or this "Uncle Tony" till today, but if this story is true, it could make the whole collector car crowd sit-up and take notice. Watch the full 18mins, and then tell us your opinion, I'm interested in what you guys think. (Only my opinion) but I always thought the Mechum Auction's were more like "Carnival Barkers" then say Goodings, RM, and the like. Cheers Tom
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2LjOvcnBFU.

[CowtownCobra]

Wow, what a SCAM

[Sawdust]

How would you feel is you were the one that just bought that Challenger for a million!!!

[Tommy]

I'm reminded of the auction when the first of the Mustang Eleanor's (by the company that was later shut down for illegal activities) sold for something like $450K. I was stunned that anyone would pay that much for a replica of a movie car that was going to be replicated many additional times. Then it hit me. Commissions from the buyer and seller totaled 20% or $90K. The seller only needed to have a shill bidder run it up until they bought the car back from themselves. If they did that they'd have at least $90k of advertising and they could tell every other prospective buyer that the market value of their replicas was set at auction at $450K, or about $300K more than I thought the car was worth at that time. . . I don't know if that is what happened, but it sure sounds reasonable to me. . . . Some of these sales are about more than egos and who has the most money.

[DanEC]

There was a lot of media hype about it several years ago. Thinking back it did seem a bit like a trial trailer for a future TV show or movie.

[Joey.S]

I think it's all a scam can't believe how Hagerty actually wrote articles and did a video on this car, shame on Hagerty!!. I would of never fell for it. just my opinion.

Joey.S

[1985 CCX]

When cars hit seven figures and auction houses are involved stories are the driver for sale prices. is this a true story, I dont know?

When selling these cars a story can add lots of $$$.
Could this be the "Black Ghost"? Maybe......
Let me add, maybe the car was never a street racer at all, just maybe as the car was seen driving around it was another fable made up by the fact its a Hemi Challenger?
Maybe that is why it was a ghost, maybe it never actually did anything at all except drive around Wooodward and the fabled Hemi Car was just that, a fable??


Booo

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by Joey.S

I think it's all a scam can't believe how Hagerty actually wrote articles and did a video on this car, shame on Hagerty!!. I would of never fell for it. just my opinion.

Joey.S

If the recent owner ran the video / publicity business as described in the OP's video link, what makes us think any videos from any source did not originate with him?

[eschaider]

I believe the story as told by Uncle Tony!

I think there are multiple perps (I like that word even though it may not be correct), some driving up the sale price of the car, some auction-related, some movie promotion related, and some new car sales related.

I doubt this is an organized, broad-based, well-oiled scam effort. I think it is more like a number of people associated with different corporate entities that all recognized an opportunity, at close to the same time, and in an opportunistic but uncoordinated sort of fashion, all cashed in on the story, albeit in different ways.

Snake oil sales may be down these days, but The Snake Oil Salesman genera is still very much alive and kicking. This story is an excellent example — and in time, the truth will be completely obscured, with only the story remaining ...

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
I think there are a number of rich guys that scheme to buy cars and sell them in a couple years for higher prices. They do not pay taxes on the difference. So say they buy it for $400,000 and sell for $550,000. they have a $150000 profit and do not pay capital gains on it. The bad thing is the average guy is outpriced from a cool car.
perry

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by HighPlainsDrifter

Hi,
I think there are a number of rich guys that scheme to buy cars and sell them in a couple years for higher prices. They do not pay taxes on the difference. So say they buy it for $400,000 and sell for $550,000. they have a $150000 profit and do not pay capital gains on it. The bad thing is the average guy is outpriced from a cool car.
perry

The strategy fails often enough. When I sent my Ford GT to BJ they really thought it would be a 400+K car. It was the last auction they entertained reserve and I'd asked for it but in a conference call with Steve and my rep they were convinced it would get over my reserve as it was the only Heritage at the auction. They promoted the hell out of it - lots of press featured it first in the articles and press releases and the car made the cover of the auction catalog. The car was in a string of other cars that did go for their expected number or higher. (By now, they are really good at estimating the prices.) I can't fault BJ for promoting it.

Anyway, mine went for 290K - 160K under estimate. No logical reason. One remote bidder and one guy in Craig's skybox were the remaining after the people that think it was a 10K car.

The buyer shipped it to the Mecum auction in Florida a few weeks later. It didn't sell for much more. Now "regulars" at Mecum do get a break on the commission and since the buyer at BJ was in Craig's skybox, he might have gotten a break on the buyer's commission. But if the seller had to pay full commissions on both BJ purchase and Mecum sale, he lost money. If he didn't pay any on either end he might have made 20K.

The lesson is that auctions are a crap shoot...

Also, a lesson was had when Carroll's Supersnake was sold. The first time it was bought by Ron Pratte for 5M. When Pratte liquidated his collection it sold for $5M.

[twobjshelbys]

1. Everyone wants to think that auctions are rigged and that the seller has shill bidders arranged by the seller or that the auction house is "in on it". Yet after two decades of watching Barrett Jackson and Mecum on cars that went for screwy money (either high or low) there has been no proof of those allegations. People are absolutely the worst secret keepers. If such collusion were really happening you'd have heard about it by now. There are a few "a friend of a cousin that knows someone that saw the auction is absolutely positive that George and Sam ran up the bid" but in no circumstance has an individual supposedly directly involved ever admitted it. So this remains an old wives tale.

The only auction shenanigans I am aware of happened at Barrett Jackson when someone was selling a Bugatti Veyron. The final bidder got the car for an absurdly low price. I was in Craig's sky box when having not been on the podium at the time came on and said that the bidder "lied" - he didn't have the money, was caught in the moment, and figured he'd get outbidded and was summarily evicted for life. Craig re-opened the auction with the previous bidder having first dibs but he rejected resuming the bidding and Craig ended up buying the car personally for the shill's bid. It still shows up at the Scottsdale auction with a BJ wrap on it - it's a "company car" and written off

2. Eleanors get screwy money. Just look at the last few that went at Barrett Jackson (I think there were 3 or 4). Now that they are "legitimate" (business wise, of course they're a copy of nothing) the reluctance to put them out there is gone and they still get top dollar. There's no logic behind it except that they are cool looking.

3. According to the feds capital gains ARE due on profit of auto sales (as they are due on art works - if you find a rare bowl for $5 at a garage sale and sell it for $5M, you owe capital gains.) Sell a car for a profit, you owe capital gains (but they depreciate like a rock and you don't get a deduction, unless you're a business.) Maybe some of Biden's 80,000 armed investigators can track down some and audit them.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

1. Everyone wants to think that auctions are rigged and that the seller has shill bidders arranged by the seller or that the auction house is "in on it". Yet after two decades of watching Barrett Jackson and Mecum on cars that went for screwy money (either high or low) there has been no proof of those allegations. People are absolutely the worst secret keepers. If such collusion were really happening you'd have heard about it by now. There are a few "a friend of a cousin that knows someone that saw the auction is absolutely positive that George and Sam ran up the bid" but in no circumstance has an individual supposedly directly involved ever admitted it. So this remains an old wives tale.

The only auction shenanigans I am aware of happened at Barrett Jackson when someone was selling a Bugatti Veyron. The final bidder got the car for an absurdly low price. I was in Craig's sky box when having not been on the podium at the time came on and said that the bidder "lied" - he didn't have the money, was caught in the moment, and figured he'd get outbidded and was summarily evicted for life. Craig re-opened the auction with the previous bidder having first dibs but he rejected resuming the bidding and Craig ended up buying the car personally for the shill's bid. It still shows up at the Scottsdale auction with a BJ wrap on it - it's a "company car" and written off

2. Eleanors get screwy money. Just look at the last few that went at Barrett Jackson (I think there were 3 or 4). Now that they are "legitimate" (business wise, of course they're a copy of nothing) the reluctance to put them out there is gone and they still get top dollar. There's no logic behind it except that they are cool looking.

3. According to the feds capital gains ARE due on profit of auto sales (as they are due on art works - if you find a rare bowl for $5 at a garage sale and sell it for $5M, you owe capital gains.) Sell a car for a profit, you owe capital gains (but they depreciate like a rock and you don't get a deduction, unless you're a business.) Maybe some of Biden's 80,000 armed investigators can track down some and audit them.

Well, I have a bit of history with a shill bidder and I going at a 1970 Boss 302 track car at a certain BJ auction......Back in the pre 2010 auction period, yet still televised, I'm bidding against someone in a side skybox, can't see who it is, but bidding was at no reserve........I bowed out, and find out I was bidding against one of the people who I watched clean the car with the seller several days earlier......Car was up on Ebay 6 weeks later, with the same owner/seller......So, while it does not happen often, it does happen...In fact, if you read the T's and C's of the auction, BJ reserves the right to bid the car up to the hidden reserve.....Yes, it's in black and white buried within the terms and conditions.......So again, while it does not happen often, to say it does not happen at all, even in todays day and age, is a bit naive......

Bill S.

[1985 CCX]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Well, I have a bit of history with a shill bidder and I going at a 1970 Boss 302 track car at a certain BJ auction......Back in the pre 2010 auction period, yet still televised, I'm bidding against someone in a side skybox, can't see who it is, but bidding was at no reserve........I bowed out, and find out I was bidding against one of the people who I watched clean the car with the seller several days earlier......Car was up on Ebay 6 weeks later, with the same owner/seller......So, while it does not happen often, it does happen...In fact, if you read the T's and C's of the auction, BJ reserves the right to bid the car up to the hidden reserve.....Yes, it's in black and white buried within the terms and conditions.......So again, while it does not happen often, to say it does not happen at all, even in todays day and age, is a bit naive......

Bill S.

I too know of two cars that sold high (shill) and then friends bought the next day at a much reduced cost as they were the next bidder down.
Not sure its a scam, just creative selling on TV.

[patrickt]

I dunnno, if I spent a million bucks on a bag of magic beans, thinking that it would let me climb a giant stalk to get bags of gold coins and a magic harp, I would continue to believe in that for quite some time, even if the stalk never appeared. Maybe even forever.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

I too know of two cars that sold high (shill) and then friends bought the next day at a much reduced cost as they were the next bidder down.
Not sure its a scam, just creative selling on TV.

When an item is being sold without reserve, and you are outbid (IE: you are the next highest bidder), and the gavel comes down, and the car is proclaimed as sold, both live on TV, and on their website......Yet comes available from the same owner/seller as was presented at the auction, but is still marked as successfully sold, with a seller/owner not stating anything like "the high bidder could not follow through with his/her bid", what would you call it? Then again, what would you then call it when the high bidder turns out to be the seller/owners employee, who came to Florida to help him clean and detail the car for the auction?

Similar situation, but a seller of a certain high value car, uses his wifes Ebay account to bid up a "no reserve" vehicle on Ebay....An account the seller had used in the distant past to sell with before he opened his own user account, with the same "terms and conditions" verbiage, including contact names and numbers....Well, back in the day, before Ebay started to mask off user names, there were easy ways to see such things.....Now of course you can still see a bit, if you know what to look for, and where, just not the actual user names.

Bill S.

[Alfa02]

Just as I thought Gentlemen, the whole thing is a SCAM ! The one comment "Uncle Tony" made that stuck out in my mind, was, the son never heard ANY Stories from his father, only from (Other People) Hummm..... setting himself up not to be sued, later down the road when/if this whole thing blows up in their faces?? Claims it's only hearsay. I think they ALL were involved (auction house, son, and God knows who else) I would wager, there was a shill, that brought the car (On Paper), then after the "Movie" comes out, they sell it for Millions more!! And then reproductions are built (Sound Familiar?) My hope is everyone gets busted over this BS. P.S. I've watched a couple more video from Uncle Tony, I like his Doesn't pull any punches. Tell's it like it is, with facts. The guy knows his Mopar's. Let's hear more on this, Cheers Tom.

[twobjshelbys]

I gave up on the video. Too much talking, not enough content. Probably could have said what he wanted to say in 5 minutes and kept my attention. What's the punch line

[HTM101]

Deleted my comments.

[Blue66]

Ok not buying the BS at all. On Halloween in 1969 I bought a 1970 Mach 1 CJ with the drag pack. I had just turned 21 in September. 2 weeks after I bought it I put on lakewood traction Bars and a set of CragerS/S rims. I drove it threw the winter saving $$$. March came an a set of Tubular Automotive headers and a cam was done an another set Of Crager's for some M&H roundy round tires . Plus a few month's later with a 427 med riser.. but thats enuff of that for now,

I was not the only kid that did this . Everyone had the racing bug bad . We all spent $$$ like drunkin sailors . The Hemi's and Boss 429 were NOTHING. A CJ killed it bad. Oh there was one guy that had a brand new Hemi he turned into a race car. NO stock car was going to be king of the street !!

This was the tread on the tires. Hey they worked


And the car .. YES I had hair then !!


Car after I was done with it. $$$$$ pit.


Had already bought a 67 GT500 in 1972 an started thinking why I am sinking more $$$$ into the Mustang. Traded the roller for a 68 GT 500 roller. Then got into the Cobra an Shelby's kinda heavy.