Insurance information straight from the source!

[klayfish]

PLEASE BE RESPECTFUL IN YOUR RESPONSES TO WHAT YOU ARE READING HERE, AND THAT I AM STICKING MY NECK OUT TO TRY TO HELP COBRA OWNERS GET A PERSEPECTIVE ON HOW INSURANCE COMPANIES LOOK AT COBRAS. THANK YOU.

I spent the entire day today meeting with the entire underwriting staff, as well as the director of marketing, for the Great American Insurance Classic Car division. After completing the other work I was actually there to do, I asked them about the recent issues with Cobras. Here's what I was told.
As some of you know, Great American just stopped writing new Cobra policies as of this week. There are several reasons why we have stopped writing Cobras.
1. High power/weight ratio. They are aware of the awesome performance potential of these cars and that in the wrong hands, they can be very dangerous. Yes, any car can be dangerous in the wrong hands, but a Cobra has greater potential to get in trouble. They are concerned about someone going from their everyday Camry into one of these cars, having no experience driving high hp cars. And the Cobra probably isn't the best car for a first time high performance car driver.
2. Fear of the home build. They are concerned that the kits are assembled properly, and won't be a hazard on the road.
3. Concern about the unknown. They have said they just don't know enough about Cobras to feel comfortable writing all kinds of business. They were getting deluged recently with requests for Cobra insurance, and just didn't feel comfortable writing these cars, which leads straight into the next point....
4. Other companies have dropped Cobras. They are aware that others have stopped writing Cobras, and did it VERY abruptly. I don't know the details, but there were some claims experienced by other companies where they got burned very badly (one claim was a double fatality). So once the others stopped writing Cobras, many people came to Great American. This made the underwriters want to step back and take a much better look at the whole situation. They state that they have seen Cobra claims, and it concerns them given the small number of Cobras out there.

They are not saying that they will NEVER write Cobras again, and they will still even write a very few number of tightly screened policies. For the time being, they are shying away from them. They want to take a step back and evaluate the whole situation. I asked them what would make them more comfortable with the cars. They said they just want some time to look at it. Previous high performance car experience may help, professional build appraisal may help, and good driving records from other Cobra owners may help. I explained to them about these Cobra websites and that there are many, many responsible Cobra owners. They agreed, but also realize (as do we all), that there are many Cobra owners out there who don't read these websites, don't care about them, and drive irresponsibly. Sadly, it hurts us all.

One of our agents visited the underwriters recently and talked to them about the Cobra issue. That agent offered to put together something to help show that Cobras can be a good risk to write, if they are screened properly. The underwriters and marketers have agreed to listen. I do not know which agent, so I can't help.

PLEASE DO NOT FLOOD GREAT AMERICAN WITH CALLS AND LETTERS TRYING TO PROVE COBRAS ARE A GOOD RISK. That will probably only make matters worse. Remember, they are looking at it from a very different perspective than us Cobra owners. They don't know as much about Cobras as we do. What they see is a high horsepower, low weight, short wheelbase, sometimes home built, rocket on 4 wheels. A car for which they will only collect $250 premium, and put up $200,000+ plus in exposures. They view them differently from kit car street rods because the street rods tend to be bigger, heavier, and not driven as "hard" as the Cobra.

I told our marketing director about DVSFIII, since she is based out of Cincinnati. She was interested in it, and plans to attend the event. She wants to assess Cobras, talk to owners, and get a feel for the overall situation. It does not mean in any way that they will write Cobras again, but they are willing to consider it. But I think the biggest reason right now is that the other companies just stopped SO quickly, out of nowhere, it scared the hell out of all the insurnce companies. They're asking "Why did Grundy and Hagerty stop so quickly?" So they are doing the same.

My advice is that we need to continue to drive responsibly and encourage all other owners to do the same. We need to show the companies that Cobras are a good risk. But it has to be done in an organized and professional manner. Angry phone calls and letters only hurt the situation. It will also take time.

I know I probably forgot to mention some other things, but I'm tired, have lots of work to do, and have millions of things running through my head. But I wanted to put this out there so everyone can get an inside perspective on the insurance situation.

Please don't shoot the messenger here, and I beg you all to be respectful. I'm sticking my neck out to try to help, and I don't want the underwriters calling me next week saying they are getting bombareded by Cobra owners. Take it for what it is worth and let's work towards a solution that will help everyone.

Steve

[mrmustang]

Steve,

As with everything else, we appreciate your going the extra mile for those of us who own Cobra(s).....Keep up the great work behind the scenes, and then keep us informed...


Sincerely,

Bill S.

PS: Will they add another Cobra on to an existing policy???

[southernfriedcj]

Great info.
I was introduced to an insurance agent the other day, and we got to talkin' about performance cars. The subject came around to Cobras, and he said he would insure them. I asked him to send me some business cards, and sure enough, they arrived at my office today. If you guys want his name and #, and if it's alright with Brent, I'll post it tomorrow night.

[ERA 626]

southernfriedcj,
Yes I would like the #

[computerworks]

Steve.... thanks for the insight and the info.

[Rich]

Steve,

Aside from the driver's record, are there certain characteristics that would make a Cobra more insurable? Like say...small block, driver training, factory assembled...etc? It's too late for us, but maybe more info would help someone who's still in the planning stage.

Rich

[petek]

Thanks Steve. Sure looks about like what we all were expecting.

[Mark Husar]

Steve...
As you have pointed out, the unfortunate accidents can have far reaching effects on all Cobra drivers. We are dealing with not only the present "rocket on wheels" identity of our sports cars but also the historic impact from the sixty's. All of us know the reputations of the Cobra...stories of 0 - 100 - 0 in 12 seconds, ultimate muscle cars, etc.etc.. So to a large majority of the public, insurance agents as well, it doesn't matter that I have small block and a great drivers record. To them what I am driving is an accident waiting to happen.
I appreciate you efforts to give us the inside scoop, and would appreciate the # if you can send it. I am having problems getting insurance for my addiction.
Thanks,
Mark

[klayfish]

Thanks everyone for not turning this into a bashing session.

Bill, yes they will add a Cobra to someone who already has a "portfolio" of existing collector cars. They see this as experience with performance cars, and that the Cobra won't be the sole source of driving enjoyment.

It's not that I am unwilling or unable to give the name and phone number of the agent who was here, I just frankly forgot who it was. I'll try to find out, but we can't deluge him with calls either.

Rich,
I don't know if small blocks would change much. It may help a little, but it may not. Factory builds would definitely help. Which is a sad state for us FFR owners. But I think even home builds can probably be insured if some kind of "network" of reputable dealers were set up and could inspect the car once it is completed. Driving experience is a huge plus, as would be a performance driving school.

The are just flat out afraid of the loss potential of a 400+ hp, 2300 lb, <100" wheelbase, fiberglass bodied (for the most part), car can be, in untrained hands. They realized what happened to Grundy and Hagerty. My understanding was that Hagerty had a loss where the car split in half, killing two people and costing them millions. So once they pulled out, so did we. Hopefully everyone else won't follow suit.

The silver lining in this cloud is that not ONE of the people I met with said they wouldn't ever write Cobras in the future. And I met with about everyone who would have a say in the matter. They are willing to listen and evaluate the situation, and maybe write them again using a different set of guidelines specifically for Cobras.

They will be attending DVSFIII, and I have invited them to learn as much as they can about Cobras and offered any assistance I can provide. But I don't want to be pushy about it.

I think if someone can make an organized, well detailed and professional presentation to give to them so they can be educated about Cobra owners, it may help. But we have to be honest and upfront, both good AND bad. We all know there are Cobra owners out there who probably shouldn't have these cars and ruin it for the rest of us. Those people need to be screened out somehow, so they don't hurt the rest of us.

Hope I can be of further assistance and I will keep you posted on the process at Great American as best I can. I will be heavily involved in their Classic/Hot Rod/Exotic/Antique/Race Car insurance division, so I should be able to stay on top of it.

Steve

[Double Venom]

Oh my Gawd!
Steve don't let her come to the Fling! "Quick start" events on a main street in a small Ohio town. Uh ...a little showing off at a highly publicized restaurant, hi speed exhibition at two different events at the Fling this year, etc., etc.

I think we SHOULD shoot the messenger!

Seriously..well done Steve. Don't worry, if you can make it Friday all loaded weapons will be unloaded, just for you

DV...
(Copied this from my FFR post to here - the following is in addition too... )

Klayfish, we're having out Kickoff party Friday night. If "she" is interested please tell her she is invited!

FOR OUR COBRA FAMILY: Would you like to turn the "floor" over to American Insurance, say for 20 minutes Friday night? Could be a worthwhile education for all of us on such an important matter?

Then everyone can get plastered )) No WHEELIES in the parking lot please!

DV....there will be all night free transportation back and forth to the hotels on Friday night. NOBODY but NOBODY will Drink and Drive. Cookies are OK!

[ROSS WEAVER]

Steve,

Thanks for your insight. This is probably the beginning to find a solution to this mounting problem. I'm glad that they are willing to take a step back and look at the whole picture. If one insurance company is willing to take a second look, maybe the others will too. As a group, we also need to find solutions. The requirement of a high performance drivers class sounds reasonable. There are definately some drivers out there that don't have a clue on the power that these cars produce. The risk to the insurance companies is very high, in addition to the beating they are taking in the stock market (like the rest of us). They have a good point on the home built cars. Not everyone has the same skills to build a reliable and safe car. The request to have a professional appraisal to judge the quality and safeness of the car is also reasonable. If a car owner feels that he doesn't need to meet these requirements, then he/she should not complain about the difficulty in attaining insurance.

Ross

[Randy Resetar]

I just called my insurance company, Voyager classic insurance. I am still insured and my rate is the same. They are insuring cobras and so far they have had no issues. Their number is 1-800-342-4444...RR

[casaleenie]

This insurance problem has far reaching implications...

Potential owner will have to shop insurance before a purchase...
This alone could eliminate half the buyers...
Current owners will have great difficulty trying to sell their cars...
Value drops..
Kits won't be sold less they can be insured...
All Cobras would have to be factory built to meet insurance demands.....(airbags, windows, emissions....etc...

Feel free to add to the list...

[klayfish]

DV,
I haven't given her all the info on DVSFIII, as I wanted to talk to you first. I certainly do NOT in any way want to make everyone put a damper on their fun because an insurance company is coming. We can decide not to invite her if we think it is best. I'm looking forward to having fun there myself. But I also believe the Cobra family is a good one, and can be some very responsible drivers and a good insurance risk. We have to show this to them and help them understand our community, who we are, and how seriously we take safety. But I don't want everyone to show up in suits and ties and just stand around polishing their cars. I sure as hell intend to drive my car when I'm there and intend to have a good time. I think all this can be done and still send the marketing reps home with a good feeling about us. Do you agree? I'm planning to come out to visit you tomorrow, at least that is my hope at the moment. I probably will only have an hour or two, but it'll be nice to meet you.

By the way, DV, I am trying to defer to you on all of this. This is YOUR event, I do not want to step on your toes or make you alter the plans. Please don't let me interfere in anything, I just want to help our current insurance problems if I can.

Steve

[southernfriedcj]

Originally posted by mrmike


southernfriedcj,
Yes I would like the #

Sorry Mike, I forgot his card. I will post the info Friday P.M.

[cobrashoch]

Klayfish - I hope you don't take this as a flame job but here goes.
What I am reading into your post is that these companys just don't know much about Cobras and other collector cars. That is totally consistant with my experience's from the 70's to the presant. Back in the late 70's I traded a Pantera for a Elegant Motors long wheelbase Cobra. Insurance was my number one problem then for both cars, and to this date it is still a problem. There IS, I repeat, THERE IS, a history with these cars. For some reason these companys don't care enough to to put the facts together into a package that us consumers can use. As a industry they didn't do it 30 years ago, and here it is 03 and they still haven't pieced something together for us consumers. There is absolutely nothing that convinces me that they will do anything in the forseeable future either.
It's not altogether the insurance industrys fault though. For just one example, the kit car industry does absoluetly NOTHING that will help you get insurance with that kit you just bought. And least anyone hasn't noticed it's imposible to get insurance on that expensive kit car you bought during the construction stage.
As fo me, I can honestly say I've had nothing but bad experiences with insurance companys. That's from a guy that hasn't had a ticket for 35 years and no claims against a policy for over 20 years. (the last claim was a Corvette that got stolen from me) For some reason I don't think I am atypical either.
Good luck on your noble quest for our hobby. I feel the cards are stacked against you.

cobrashock

[Double Venom]

Funny how things get started. Maybe after 25 years of trying to get an industry compliant "kit car " standard, KLAYFISH may just have got it started.

Much like the NSRA...if your car does not meet the golden "23 rules" (now 24 I believe), you will not get an NSRA safety sticker. Many, many company's demand you have this sticker to get insurance.

Why can't "we" as a family do the same thing? You have to have properly mounted seats, proper seatbelts also mounted correctly, datum lines have to be met. Brake inpsections, STEERING inspections, safe fuel systems, proper locking doors,etc.
("Period Correct" does NOT mean safe!)

Fellas, we are all decendants of Manx! Think about it. A VW chopped frame with what we call a dune buggy body. Today most of us wouldn't even think twice about getting into one of those and zipping down any freeway, USA at 70 plus mph!

I tried to get this started many years ago by working with some of the manufacturers, all with a "ho-hum" attitude. Maybe the time is right. Maybe we should do this? Maybe?

Steve, Klayfish, be carefull. I know what happens when you simply say, " lets have a picnic and eat chocolate chip cookies!"

You Sir, might be the man "we" all need!

DV..can't step on my toes fella, I do that all by myself

[CSX 4039]

The same philosophy is destroying the medical field, as well as many other, I'm sure. So, to hope it can't destroy the Cobra market is wishful thinking. The dollars generated from a few thousand weekend driving antique vehicle policies is not enough for these companies to miss if it goes away. The rare but huge settlements however, does bother them. Risk/benefit/supply/demand stuff.

[Turk]

Are we talking about the same insurance companies who have no problem insuring some pimple faced kid in his teens on a 200 MPH superbike without a helmet?

If a car breaks in half due to poor construction, isn't that more of a case of product liability?
The manuafcturers are not having a problem insuring themselves (self insured or otherwise) we are talking about OUR ability to secure insurance so we can drive them.

If the multi million dollar settlemet was as a result of some home builders poor welding skills, why do I have to suffer with a factory built car when I go looking for reasonable insurance just to drive mine around?

If my frame broke in half, I think the manufacturer could or should indemnify my insurance company against any liabilties caused as a result of their poor construction.

TURK

[southernfriedcj]

Turk, you make some valid points. I think the greatest threat to the Cobra industry will be when the manufacturerers can no longer get liability insurance.
As a hombuilder/developer, I see the availible general liability insurance carriers shrinking. I was told by my agent that only 2 companies write Gen Lia for Georgia homebuilders.
We also must require our subs to carry $1,000,000. of Gen Lia insurance with our company endorsed as an additional insured.
It would seem to me that product liability would be a greater risk that accidents due to Cobra owner's fault.