Insurance information straight from the source!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

klay;

Not to ride the coattails of NSRA at all....If we form our own group and inspect cars and issue a certificate or w/s decal such as NSRA does,good...My point or question is,would NSRA inspect our cars or not????If they would,I would think that that would compliment our cars as being inspected and passing more than one test and just make them look better in the insurance industry's eyes as well as resale and other related things....


David

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by DAVID GAGNARD


Brett;

Some people feel ripped off by insurance companys,I personally do not

David-
Ever heard of post payment review? That is where an insurance company pre-authorizes a treatment, based upon the FULL documentation you submit, but, in small print says "authorization does not guarantee payment", and then, in "post-payment review", they look at the SAME documentation, and conclude that the treatment was unneccessary, and deny payment. Or, at least delay payment until you fight for it, and it has sat in their bank account collecting intrest for six months.
If you called you plumber, ordered a new water heater, he delivered the perfectly functioning water heater, and then you denied payment because you decided you didn't need a water heater, what would you think??

[klayfish]

Wow, debating medical insurance. That's REALLY getting off topic. Truthfully, I know very little about medical insurance. I've heard lots of horror stories about it, but I've never been inside the medical insurance industry, so I don't know what their thinking is. I only know about auto insurance, and do not feel they try to screw anyone at all. Medical insurance is a whole different ballgame than auto.

David, thanks for your input. I would think in the natural course of things, many of the inspectors we choose would be the exact same ones who do inspections for the NSRA. I see no problem with that. They sure have a good reputation and know what they are doing. So if they inspect our cars for us, that's good. But not all will be NSRA inspectors. I agree with you.

KobraKarl, I don't think we can try to dilute ourselves into another group. That's just hiding. We need to join together into a group of our own and give ourselves a name and respectibility. As I said above, many of our inspectors likely will be NSRA inspectors too, but we will be separate.

Steve

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by klayfish


Wow, debating medical insurance. That's REALLY getting off topic.

Steve- I know a lot about insurance, but little or nothing about car insurance. I try to only speak about things I know about, and so, since I am an auto insurance consumer only, I will retire from the thread.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Brett;

I know very little about health insurance,thankfully I have never had to use mine for anything other than very minor illnesss,so therefore I can not "debate" with on a subject I practically know nothing about....You may have had some bad expriences with your insurance carrier and you may be totally right and you may have been screwed,I do not know, but I know the auto insurance industry and as I have said they are two different animals.....

Klay;

I agree with you that some of our stuff will overlap with NSRA and that we need to remain a totally seperate group for our own good and recognition....Using some of the NSRA guidelines and drawing from their past and present may save us some "legwork" so to speak....I will contact my buddy over here and try to talk with someone more knowledgeable with the NSRA rules/guidelines/inner workings over the weekend to get some insight on what we need to do and which direction to head in....

The only other thing I would mention right now is if you are planning to include all "homebuilt" type cars,than not right the rules specifically for Cobras as to leave out the others....

David

[Double Venom]

Ok, here it is again: WE cannot join the NSRA unless you can prove your car was originally a PRE 1948! I have and still do work with the NSRA every chance I get. Go way back to the beginning here and you will find my first comments about this.

They did it, they do it, and so should we. Period.

How about the in the last two years at least a dozen Cobras burned to the ground because of improper fuel lines and connections. (How many of you have an EFI system, using "regular" fuel line and using one clamp between your rubber and hopefully steel lines?) Did or do you even know there are two distinct rubber fuel lines for cars? Yes, there is! The old standard gas line that works great for Carbs, but did you know EFI systems require and demand a totally different type line?

How many of you have "compression" fittings in your brake lines?By golly, I just caught one of our new employees using one in lieu of a proper fitting on a customers '34 Ford! I off course went ballistic, especially when he told me he had been doing it for years and never had a problem with his own cars! I love that excuse! I've been doing that for years, and blah,blah, blah.

The same scenario exists here. Just because we have been doing this for years does "NOT" mean we have been doing it right.

Either you do it or don't, that is up to you.
Either you support it or don't that too is up to you.
Either you get it or you don't.

People it is so simple, so logical, so easy, with only benefits and absolutely no negatives, either now or in the future, I just don't see what the problem is.

Is Blackjack the only one that gets it? It IS SAFETY people, it IS about safety. Be proud of it, don't hide it! It is our whole point!

DV...BRUCE, et. al., The Legal Definition of our cars IS - "Self ASSEMBLED," Including what most people call a streetrod.

[REAL 1]

First. Are the insurance companies backing away from hot rods? They have much in common with Cobras. Many home built with tremendous horsepower.

Are the demographics of the two owner groups the same or similar?. Age, income, driving experience?

Cobras present the additonal concern in that they I believe are seen as race cars and their owners seen as being more aggressive drivers. They are I think more likely to show up at track events than hot rods. Perhaps the Ins. Co's believe this too.

Is this part of their concern? If it is I think that the exclusions found in many auto policies as to "racing" or "street racing" cover this concern.

Again, I think the main problem comes back to the fact that a vast majority of these cars are home built. There is no uniform consistency in construction and materials used. When a Corolla is made they are punched out the same every time and meet various standards of safety and construction. They are therefore a known entity to the carrier.

Part of the insurance game is estimating the risk. Known variables help. The carrier is better able to rate the risk and price the premium.

Carriers still insure old cars without many of todays safety features. Jags, MGB's, Triumphs, 427 Vettes, Chevelle 454's, GTO's. All very fast cars. So I must conclude that while power is a factor and a concern its not the REAL culprit. None of these cars also meet todays safety standards. So that can't be the REAL culprit scaring them off.

Extreme value? Nah. I'll bet they will be happy to write original Cobras. They will price the premium accordingly if you want collision and theft but they know the car was "factory built." From a road worthiness standpoint no different than an old Triumph.

I think it comes full circle to the home built issue. I don't think we can get the insurance companies to set the safety standards. I think maybe the answer is to take the safety standards from the NHRA and have a ASE mechanic inspect your car then have the NHRA issue a sticker of approval so to speak and submit that proof to the carrier. They will see that the individual car has meet certain safety and construction requirements.

If the NHRA won't work with us then we have three choices. Form an association that will issue a sticker certifying that the vehicle has meet set standards of construction and safety supported by a certifed ASE mechanics report/checklist or we can on our own have a mechanic provide a letter that the car is road worthy. Third option is to sell the Cobra and buy something else.

[mr bruce]

What are the numbers on mechanical failure causing wrecks, is it a fraction of a %? The 2 fatalities in the accident a few weeks ago were in a factory assembled car! What your/we are trying to do can't hurt, but,there is more in play here than meets the eye.

[Double Venom]

Mr. Bruce,
I only wish we could get our hands on that information. Bottom line, the manfacturers don't tell, even if hey know! A guy cracks his car up for any reason doesn't normally tell. I was hoping that Steve, (Klayfish) had some way of getting this from the insurance company's, but I'm not even sure all of them share this type of information on small and simple claims.

If it holds true to the automotive industry percentages, the minor vs. the extreme, I.E; number of fender benders to fatalities, the ratio is thousands to one. If the same applies to our cars, then throw in a huge plus because of building / assembling improprieties and it gets down right scarey!

This has to stop. Something has to be done. This is best way I know how.

DV...Don't call me "NADER"! I loved my '64 Corvair convertible!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

DV;

I missed your earlier post about NSRA,so now knowing they only deal with pre-1948 autos,that kinda knocks out of the game as far as having our cars inspected by them....

We definetly need our own organization and recognition to do any good and I'm all for that.....

I think the next question or step is to start setting up a list of rules to comply with,what do you think???? Also, I think it is a good idea to inspect any car,regardless of age-make-type. If someone wants their car inspected they simply have to pass the inspection regardless of what they have....This,I, think will only help out the organization and possibly get us more attention and recognition, your thoughts on that????

David

[klayfish]

Holy crap, I must be tired. I agree with most of your post Evan. The build quality is a concern for the insurance company. Plain and simple, they don't have a lot of experience with Cobras. They have lots of experience with the street rods. The street rods have proven on their own that they are well built and they are safe drivers. We need to do the same on our own. We need to show them that our steering wheels won't fall off, our brakes will work, etc... However, the list we are proposing is not just for insurance. We want to make sure we live to see tomorrow.

However, Evan, the insurance companies ARE worried about the drivers and street racing. Yes, there are exclusions for track racing, but there are NO exclusions for street driving. There is no "stupidity" clause in the policy. In other words, if some clown goes 75 mph in a school zone because he was racing some kid in his TransAm, and plows into a school bus, there is no denial of that claim. The hot rodders have shown that they don't do this, they don't tend to drive that way. Apparently the Cobras have, and they have that "reputation". Whether the reputation is fair or not can be debated, but it is there. We need to change that. They also see the Cobras as having more performance potential, and therefore the potential for more danger. We have to show that we are aware of the potential danger and know how to handle it.

I may be able to get some of the actual claim statistics, but I will make no promises. There are several obstacles for me. My computer system at work has no way to sort claims by vehicle type. I'd have to depend on the claims adjusters. The claims adjusters are in Cincinnati. They are very busy. Also the privacy issue. I don't want to get myself in trouble. I'll see what I can find out, but I don't think my claims adjusters were lying to me. They said that given the small number of Cobras out there, they see more Cobra claims than they expect. They also said that usually when one wrecks, it WRECKS. It's a loss caused by spinning out and such.

DV is right, it is about safety. Plain and simple. Not just insurance, but safety for us. It's not a Ralph Nader movement. Nobody is trying to take away your freedom or fun. Hell, we've got nothing to do with government agencies. Ask the NSRA owners if that group has taken away from their fun or added to it.

We've GOT to do this.

Steve

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Evan & others;

I have to echo Steve's last post and would add this....Around here, there are a number of "old car clubs" and "street rod clubs",that's fine.... I know most of these people and their cars and admire their work and their cars,they are works of art.....The way I see them and so does the insurance industry,is a bunch of older guys and gals getting together for parades and "show and shine" events and picnics....They usually drive slow and are usually very responsible people....their cars are NSRA inspected and they usually do not put a lot of miles per year on their car,this equals good insurance risks,plain and simple....

Now the Cobra crowd,that's a little different....They are percieved as a wilder bunch,slightly younger,mostly men,little cars,big motors,going thru a mid life crisis, kinda like the 40 something year old in the little red Porshe with the 25 year old blonde... Is this fair or not I do not know,never said it was accurate of the situation,just the way things are perceived....When was the last time you saw a 35 Ford Coupe Street Rod at a road course????Cobras are seen at track events and there's nothing wrong with racing track events,sometimes it just gives the wrong impression about the car.

That's the purpose of this group,to try and change the reputation the Cobra has enjoyed to a more likeable one with the insurance industry and show them these cars are safe....Right now the insurance industry is holding all the cards and making all the rules,we just need to show them our intentions are good as well as our cars and maybe they will start to cut us some slack and work with us....

David

[cobrashoch]

Evan - Having just going thru the NHRA certification process and the matching licence I can tell you without provocation that the Cobra group does not want to go there. Period! While I agree with the NHRA's requirments they are not everyones cup of tea for a Cobra. Then there's politics with insurance companys for NHRA cars and street driving. BOO~HISSSSSS.
Ed- Does the hot rod industry have cars manufactured as turn key minnus or as pallet cars from a factory the same way that Kit cars are made? Or are they all hand built either in/shop or in/home as I suspect. I've been away from those guys for a while, to much billet you know.
My Opinion - I submitt that there ARE standards to compare a home/built to a turn key minnus car! Lets see, Superformance, Backdraft, Team-C racing etc. not to mention pallet cars from Unique and others. The fact that many of these cars are built from several stages from a factory should tell a underwriter something. Together with the proposed inspecton of a completed car, that should have some merit to a underwriter. I hope you guys get this thing sorted out. I see nothing but good coming out of it !
cobrashock

[REAL 1]

Steve: My policy with Chubb does exclude track racing and any claim resulting from "street racing". Makes total sense. Street racing has no place on public roads. Period. No excuse.

What I am getting from all this is that the problem is more demographics of Cobra drivers combined with the "home built" factor.

I have done no research but just from what I have seen I sensed that the Cobra crowd was in general a more "aggressive" group of drivers as I noted previously. Guess I was right. All you have to do is read thread after thread on this cite where guys are striving for more and more horsepower from lighter and lighter engines. My 427SO putting out 502 hp is mild compared to some of the others including SBs. Guys are always looking to squeeze more and more power from these things far exceeding what the originals did.

While I think the street rodders are into power too they perhaps put more emphasis on the showability and "shine" aspect of the hobby.

If Ed is right about the NSRA or NHRA as to working with them then we have to form our own group.

As to power. Look. A Cobra is a Cobra. They by their nature will be putting out at least 385hp with a stock/base line 351W or a worked 302. Unless we are willing to run 6 cylinders the carriers will never be happy about the substantial power these things have.

But I don't think its the performance potential that putting the kabosh on writing policies. I think its US!

Carriers look at us as a very aggressive driving group driving around with our hair on fire in home made missles. Its thats simple.

Steve, why can't carriers put an endorsement into every Cobra policy that does exclude street racing? If you have an accident going 100 mph in a 55 mph zone maybe you should forfeit coverage. I have no love for insurance companies, they are snakes, but whats fair is fair. That would help give them protection agains the overly aggressive Cobra owner.

We as a Club could form a group that establishes a process to establish a Cobra is road worthy. We can have a qualified builder or consultant give us a list of requirements to be checked on every car for it to be road worthy and has been constructed properly. This list can be created and distributed by every Kit Manufacturer as a list the owner can have "certified" by a ASE qualifed mechanic in his area. That "certification" when obtained can be provided to the agent and carrier when coverage is applied for. The carrier then knows or has some reliable assurance that the car is road worthy.

I see a responsibility for the kit manufacturers in this process. They need to step up to the plate and assist in the solution by being involved. This is their problem as well. Maybe one solution is for each manfacturer to build each kit to a certain phase including suspension, brake lines, pedals, anchoring seats and belts and steering. Thereby making these cars closer to factory built. We will pay for it but it may make the carriers more comfortable.

If we as Club want to form an approval process such as the NRSA thats fine but we need to be careful about our potential liabilty. Unless representatives of our "group" are actually involved in the inspection process any "sticker" we give is nothing more than acknowledgment that the owner has had the items on the check list checked by an independent mechanic and we are relying on the fact the owner/mechanic has been truthful.

If we as a group provide the inspectors...well that opens the door to liablility for sure. Not sure we want to go there.

I think the key is to give the owners the tools to assure the carriers the cars are roadworthy when completed.

The carriers want business. They just don't want to buy a claim.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Evan;

You hit the nail on the head. Have to agree with almost everything you said. We will have to police ourselfs so to speak if anyone wants a break on their insurance or at least the ability to get it at a reasonable price....The street rodders have proven themselfs and they have a good track record,that's why they get a reasonable coverage rate,we just have to do the same.....

David

[klayfish]

Evan,
Alright!! Now we're on the same page. I can't respond long, got lots of work to do, but really quick...

As David and yourself pointed out, the Cobra crowd is seen as more aggressive. Most street rodders tend to be "waxers" if you will. No disrespect at all to them, there is nothing wrong with that. They tend to shine their cars, drive them slowly to a show, polish them, talk about them and look at them. Then drive slowly home. You don't see them on the road course or normally blazing down the back roads. Cobra drivers do tend to be younger, drive faster and have a reputation (right or wrong) of being more reckless. And I'm sure there are some reckless Cobra drivers out there. We need to show that we can organize a group of responsible drivers driving safe cars.

We have discussed and agreed on the need for safety inspections of our cars. Working the details of the inspection out may be more difficult, but we'll get through it. It will only help us, both insurance wise, and plain safety wise.

You're right, a Cobra is a Cobra. Just like a street rod is a street rod. No self respecting rodder would put a 150 hp 4 cylinder motor in their rod. I don't think it is a problem putting all this horsepower into the Cobras, and I would never condone putting a restriction on it. That's going waaay too far. What we need to do is show that we can handle it responsibly. That's all. Plain and simple. I specifically asked our underwriters about horsepower, and they said they haven't turned any street rod down due to its' power. They'd like to know that the owner can handle it, but if so, no problems. They'll write it. As you said, it isn't the performance potenital itself, it is what WE are doing with it that causes the problems.

We definitely need to form our own seperate group from the NHRA, NSRA or anyone else, which we have discussed and agreed on.

Hmmm...if insurance companies are snakes, does that explain why I love Cobras and Vipers so much?? Your right. What's fair is fair. Here's the problem with an exclusion in the policy for street racing and/or 100 in a 55 zone. And I know this part VERY well, because I do it for a living. How would the insurance company prove it? How can I prove it was a street racing incident? Without telemetry, how can I undeniably prove they were going too fast? I face the same problem when doing my fraud investigations. How can I prove someone actually ditched their car, instead of it being stolen? Even if I strongly suspect it, how do I prove it? You should know that the courts don't generally look favorably on auto insurance companies. A good lawyer would be able to demonstrate that we couldn't definitely prove street racing or excessive speeding. And I don't want to get into a debate about lawyers or courts again, but you know what I'm trying to say. That's why they won't really do that. You may have that street racing clause in your policy, and I think it's great that you do. As you point out, it has NO place on public roads. But unless there would be witnesses to say "Yes, I know for a fact that he was street racing because he said so" and the insured admitted to it, denying coverage is not easy to do.

We can't get the manufacturers directly involved in this. DV pointed this out before, and I don't want to redo his whole point, but what if FFR gives more than SAI, or SPF gives more than Backdraft. We can't get involved in that. Not to mention the whole liability thing again. I definitely hope we have a good working relationship with the manufacturers and can positively influence them, but we need to be fully independent.

Speaking of liability, I agree we need to totally abosolve ourselves and the inspectors of any liability. This is a voluntary program designed just to help each other out. It should not be taken as legal documentation that the car is safe or otherwise "approved" legally. I assume, but dont' know, that the NSRA et al. do the same.

Your quote: "I think the key is to give the owners the tools to assure the carriers the cars are roadworthy when completed.

The carriers want business. They just don't want to buy a claim." Amen to that.

However, our agenda is to go beyond the insurance problem. Yes, it is the most pressing problem we have right now and needs to be addressed, but we want to group to go on strong once that problem has been faced and solved.

I know I didn't say everything I wanted, and sorry if my comments are half baked. I'm swamped, we had 8" of snow this morning, so I missed a half day work. Got lots to do.

Thanks and keep the thoughts coming.

Steve

[REAL 1]

Steve: My thought of getting the manufacturers involved would be to get them to cooperate with us and supply the Club check list with every kit and the info on whatever process the Club recomends or suggests to make sure the car is roadworthy.

I don't think any organization formed should participate in the actual inspections. I think it should be limited to an info pack with a check list to be certified by a qualifed ASE mechanic that listed items have been properly installed and constructed and the car is roadworthy. This then can be presented to the agent and carrier.

As to proving "street racing" first if Cobra owners know there is such an exclusion in the policy it will act as a disincentive to reckless driving. Owners will be on notice that if they are caught they lose it.

Second there are many occassions that such conduct can be proved. Its different then trying to prove someones subject intent. There are physical factors that will prove excessive speed. Perhaps typical crush analysis can't be performed to determine speed due to the fact there is probably no statisical data on crush analysis on Cobra replicas or Cobras. But as with the case in N.Y. where some guy in a vette was racing some jerk in a Lamborghini resulting in a death there were witnesses. Many times there are skid marks which can yield speed information.

If a car is going 100 mph it usually leaves quite a path of destruction when things go wrong. Accident reconstructionists many times can determine speed from damage and skid marks, yaw marks etc...

An exclusion against "street racing" is not only sound from a social standpioint and reasonable it will serve as a disincentive to reckless driving.

Thats one exclusion I would be in favor of.

[Turk]

Are we certifying the cars or the drivers?

TURK

[klayfish]

Turk, to answer your questions. Yes. The cars will be certified to an agreed safety checklist. The drivers will be encouraged to drive defensively, participate in driver training schools, but I don't think there will be an official "certification" for the drivers per se.

Evan, as for the manufacturers, I too hope we can have a great relationship with them and work together to help improve their product. I understand what you're saying. I suppose it will be up to the manufacturer if they want to include the list in the purchase, but we definitely shouldn't have them "sponsor" us or be an official part of the group (I'm not implying that you feel they should be). But yes, I have high hopes that our relationships with the manufactures will be a positive and productive one.

I agree in theory with your points about policy exclusions, and perhaps I shouldn't even post my points here. You're right, the exclusions in the policy for street racing or something like that should be a strong influence on policyholder to keep them from driving like fools. However, I think the true street racing losses will be somewhat rare and again hard to prove. Like I said, if a company can definitively prove that the person was "racing", then they can deny it. I don't have any data to back up my thoughts, but I know from experience in claims, I haven't seen that many losses caused by actual "street racing". As you say about the McDonalds' lawsuit, the ones that do happen get sensationalized in the media, but in actuality, I think they are fairly rare. More often, the driver is just going too fast. I have never seen a policy that has an exclusion for pure speeding. Again, in theory, I agree with you 100%. But in practice, it just probably wouldn't happen. We need to push hard for our membership not to drive like that. It's personal responsibility. I don't know about you, but for me the incentive not to street race isn't because of fear of an insurance claim, it is the overwhelming desire to see the sun come up tomorrow. That's what we need to focus on. If we can accomplish that, the street racing will become a non-issue. For this reason, I would encourage owners to participate in legal drag racing or autox, depending what their desires are. Go to your local drag strip. It's legal, cheap and fun. No, it won't be covered by insurance, but the companies generally don't care about that, because that is a clear black and white issue. No coverage for racing period. Same with autox. I'm partial to autox, because I like to turn left and right. It also helps teach car control.

I know DV is absolutely buried with work, but hopefully he'll be able to jump in soon and give some thoughts. We're ready to move forward with this organization, and can't wait to get it off the ground.

Steve

[Double Venom]

You know I will show up sooner or later!

It is now taking me an hour each night just to keep up with what has been said all day.

David, a page ago you nailed it, Then Evan nailed it, our point is getting across. First we have to get Evan acclimated to, NSRA, NHRA, ISCA, NSA, etc.

Let me address a few issues. Over the years the NSRA had been sued by streetrodders who passed, did not pass the safety points suggested by them. Even though their whole intent, like ours was to help make their hobby and their members rides safer. As far as I know NSRA won every case, came up with a new disclaimer that has held up 100% for every inspection. It simply indemifys () the inspector and the organization-period.

Once again, I know the manufacturer's ARE reading these posts. I know they are not shaking in their leather chairs with nightmares of airbags, ABS etc. I would like to think they are seeing some dollar signs when they tell a potential customer that their car, built correctly will easily pass the new organizations safety suggestions.

Before I would even allow any, or all manufacturer's to monetarily support us, it would have to be put in front of our council. It is not and will NOT be our job to tell potential customers if one Cobra is safer than another. If we tell that customer that X,Y,Z does support the safety organization, that may or may not be a valid point.

Let me expound on that last comment a little and play the advocate. Our group knows X,Y, and Z company's very well, they support us and do everything they can to make their cars safe. Now comes a brand new company. They want to sign on, or better yet, demand to be put on the "A" list. We allow them, then find out their main frame rails are PVC plastic. They have no provisions for proper seat belt mounting let alone seat belt mounting, what do we do? Oh ya, they are on our list, but we al know their car wouldn't be safe for a kiddy ride at an amusement park!

Pallet Cars, Turnkey minus cars: Unique, Superformance, SAI. What's the difference! The rules WILL apply to all kit cars, ALL of them. I would like to think the only thing we may find wrong with one of these type cars during a safety check might be a "weeping" brake line!

All kit cars, all self assembled vehicles, all home built. What ever you call them, they ARE the same to the insurance company.

Insurance company's will not tell us how. Cobra companies will not tell us how, God willing, the Government will not tell us how.
"WE" will do it on our own. We will do it right. We can and "we" will do this with your support.

DV....I'm ready, are you?