An addition to insurance thread; DVSFIII and a question to everyone

[klayfish]

I wanted to put this in a new thread, as there are some things I want to start fresh with. In case anyone missed the original thread, it is Insurance information straight from the source!

Thanks everyone for keeping the thread clean. I really appreciate it. I think we can beat the subject to death, but it won't change anything for anyone unless we DO SOMETHING about it.

I had the absolute pleasure of meeting DV yesterday at his shop, and we had some great discussions about insurance, Cobras, DVSFIII and cars in general. Thank you so much DV for showing me around and taking time from your schedule.

DV and I discussed when would be a good time to invite the marketing rep from my insurance company to come out and meet everyone. I will let DV point out which times are best, but we certainly agree that only certain times would be good. But I still believe it would be a good opportunity for her to understand that we are good people and responsible drivers, and we should get insurance.

One idea DV brought up, which I love, is the idea of creating some kind of group or organization, which will "certify" Cobras and their drivers. We talked about the NSRA organization for street rods where they must pass a 23 (?) point inspection by a certified mechanic to get the sticker. As one of the concerns of insurance companies is that they are worried about home builds, wouldn't it be a good idea for us to come up with some kind of way of certifying that our cars are well assembled and not some backyard expirement? What I would propose (these are ideas given to me by DV) is that anyone who wants their car certified must have it inspected by a Cobra builder, or if one isn't local or convenient, an ASE certified professional mechanic. There would be a standard checklist of items for the mechanic to look for, in case they aren't familiar with Cobras. The checklist would have to be written by builders who know EXACTLY what to look for. Check steering, brakes, suspension, critical build points, etc... This would give some type of standard to help prove that the car is well built. The list would be mandatory for membership, and NO exceptions would be made for anyone. Understandably, due to liability concerns, we wouldn't ask the Cobra manufacturers to officially participate in the program at all, we need to run this on our own. But I would hope that once we get established, we could ask for their verbal and moral support.
As a further step, the group would sort of watch out for each other. In no way would I suggest this group should be a Nazi strict organization, but a pledge to drive responsibly (i.e. don't street race, go 100 mph in a 35 mph zone, etc...). Yes, of course we can, and damn well should, have a blast driving our cars, but do it with some common sense. Perhaps even having a place to list high performance driving experience and/or Cobra driving school/racing experience in our membership.
I know this sounds like a lot to do, and sounds complicated. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I do know that if we don't do something, our troubles may only get worse. I love driving my Cobra too much to stand by and just watch this. If I'm going down, I'm going down swinging.
Can you see where this whole problem might be leading? If insurance becomes difficult or nearly impossible, to get, people will stop buying new kits. Those with current kits will want to unload them since they can't drive them. What will happen to the Cobra market?? And it WON'T be the fault of the insurance companies, it will be OUR fault. (Please lets' not start an argument with that comment, it is just plain reality).
I would propose to make it as simple and easy as possible. My favorite philosophy...K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. I think it can be done with no (or very very minimal) membership fee, and no "meetings" or anything unless we wanted to. This would also take time, so we would have to stick with it. I think we'd have to organize the group, get people signed up, drive responsibly, then be able to go to the insurance companies and say "Hey, here we are. Our cars have been inspected to ensure quality build, and we have shown and pledged that we are responsible drivers and watch out for each other". If we get this going, I will certainly be a volunteer to be in communication with the insurance companies, since I work for one. I would just notify them at the start that we are organizing a club and explain what it is about. I wouldn't ask them for anything right away, just invite them to see what we are doing and watch what happens. It can't hurt to try. I truly believe it will work. Why do you think those applications for classic car insurance ask if you are a member of any clubs? For reasons exactly like this. Many insurance companies recognize and respect these clubs. I know this for a fact because a few of the underwriters mentioned to me that it bothers them when someone says they are a club member and they aren't. I think this is because they see these clubs as organized owners with common interests, goals and responsibilities. Corvettes are known for these type of owners groups. So why on earth can't we have a Cobra group for the same thing? Don't tell me 'Vette owners are better than we are!
I hope there will not only be initial support for this idea, but it is something that people will need to commit to and stick with. I see no reason people can't commit to it, you won't really have to do anything except get your car certified, drive smartly, and if you want attend a driving school (which is more fun than you can imagine).
I've been rambling on here, so I'll shut up now. It's your call. These are your cars (and mine too), it's your decision. Thanks for your consideration. Anyone else on board with me?

Steve

[Tom Wells]

Hi Steve,

In my usual simple(ton) way, let me see if I understand this:

1) Get the car to pass an NSRA (-like) inspection.

2) Get to a driving school.


Hmmm...

I think I like that!



Sign me up!

Tom

[BLACKJACK]

HI, STEVE - -

I THINK IT'S A GREAT IDEA. HOPEFULLY WE CAN IMPROVE OUR POSITION WITH THE INSURANCE UNDERWRITERS - - BUT, IN ANY EVENT - - IT'S STILL A GOOD IDEA.

WE WILL BE DRIVING SAFER CARS WITH GREATER CONFIDENCE BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE A "SECOND OPINION" AS TO THE SAFETY OF OUR CARS.

IT WILL ALSO BE AN ASSET IF WE EVER CHOOSE TO SELL OUR CARS. A POTENTIAL BUYER WOULD CERTAINLY CONSIDER A "CERTIFIED" COBRA OVER A NON-CERTIFIED CAR.

LET'S DO IT.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY.

BLACKJACK

[Double Venom]

Steve,
That is a whole lot of typing. I think you pretty well covered it!

Gentlemen, I found this on one of the FFR threads this morning. It says it all. Was it as a result of driver error? A build problem? What if it wasn't the drivers fault at all?

I, as well as you should see two major safety issues. One of which is very glaring! The steering column. The damned steering column! Yes, it is a CR's kit, yes, it is (to the eye) installed per CR's manual. Yes, it "originally" was a collapsible column when it came from GM. Due to designed installation, and every other Cobra kit on the market, it has lost it's ability to collapse in either direction.
(If any Cobra manufacturer supplies or has designed their columns to collapse, please, I want to know!)



The second major possible problem I spotted is the seat belts. It appears from a not very detailed photo, the belts in use were an old style OEM type lap or even possibly a 3 point belt. Total speculation on this, but I don't know any company other than us that sells a 4-point with this type buckle.

Was the driver / passenger buckled in? I have no idea. Does anyone have information on the occupants?

Back to the point. If "WE" our family, policed ourselves, organized a group to come up with at least minimal safety requirements and then voluntarily met these requirements, would not that be a good thing?


"MY OPINIONS" : The manufacturers should NOT be involved with this. It should be a totally independent type organization, by "US" and for "US"! It should not be their responsibility to make sure your seats are bolted in correctly. Your seatbelts are proper and installed correctly. Your fuel lines aren't too close or even touching any part of your exhaust system. Your brake lines are installed correctly, and your brakes are proper.

I tried to get the Cobra family's attention on this very thing in 1989. It went no where. Maybe today, with the help of the Internet, our "Family" and now with the awakening of the giants, AKA, the insurance companies, it is time that "WE" do something.

Steve, as I said earlier, be careful of what you post! Need a cookie?

DV...Look what "WE" are doing and have done for Jenny! Can't we do something for ourselves?

[ac andy]

Good call guys, you are only going to help yourselves if your cars are safer anyway. No one wants to die in a car crash, so it is common sense to put some if these safety features into your cars. I think that between you all (there are obviously some very talented guys in the states) you can make this issue work in your favour for a): resale, b): insurance and c): general peace of mind.

Good Luck, Andy.

[casaleenie]

Initially it sounds good.... and possibly something needs to be done ....but boy,, I don't know....

The build is a personal thing -

It could be a good solid build but with 400, 500,600HP. That alone could make it a bad risk...

What could the insurance companies mandate as far as performance limitations and would they....??

Just a few questions..A Devil's Advocate thing....

[Double Venom]

Casaleenie,
All good thoughts. I am going to wait a couple of days and try and answer any questions, like yours that pop up.

But remember this: The "streetrodders" were in the same fix, only much, much worse. Kind of like the Hell's Angels of the 50 and 60's. "THEY" took the hard road, came up with some very basic rules for safety, implemented them and now they are the standard. "WE" can do the same thing.

I have a 1940 Willy's kit in house right now with a brand new 502 BB, going to be modified pushing an easy 600 HP. We have done dozens of 34' Fords, '32 Fords, etc., etc., with every bit that much horsepower. All of our cars meet the "23" plus and not one of them have ever had an insurance problem. Ten or fifteen years ago, Oh Ya... but not now!
DV...again, so much more to come

[Dwight]

I'M VERY INTERESTED.

[casaleenie]

Ed,

Where would I find the "23"Plus? Believe me, I have no problem complying with conditions that allow me, and others, to obtain insurance. If I can get insurance on a Cobra and others can't, it diminishes the value of my car. (and vice-versa)(sp)

I don't have a sense of history of "streetrods" and I don't really know what you guys went through... I always seem to get into something just when the fecal matter hits the cooling device...
(the stock market is a good example)

I'll check back in a few days and see what you come up with..
Always interested in what you have to say,

al

[Double Venom]

Casaleenie, et.al.,

Keeping in mind these rules ARE mainly intended for streetrods, not for Cobras.

1. HORN: Electric only.
2. SPEED INDICATOR: Speedometer or calibrated tachometer at 55 mph
3. REAR VIEW MIRROR: One inside or outside on driver's side of vehicle.
4. GLASS: Must be safety plate.
5. LIGHTING: Hi-beam; low-beam; tail; brake; license.
6. WINDSHIELD WIPER: Electric or vacuum operated.
7. AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION LOCKOUT: Neutral and/or park start only.
8. TIRES: Minimum 3/32 tread acceptable. Must meet D.O.T. specifications .
9. STEERING: No excessive "play" (2" radius max.) or binding; system must be safely mounted.
10. THROTTLE LINKAGE: Must not travel past center, return spring required.
11. FUEL SYSTEM: CHECK VENT ON TRUNK AND INTERIOR MOUNTED TANKS; no clear, plastic lines allowed. No leaks.
12. EXHAUST SYSTEM: NO LEAKS. Must pass rear edge of front door and exit exhaust away from vehicle.
13. SELF-ALIGNING ROD END BEARINGS: Check for fractures, insert sloppiness or binding.
14. SHOCK ABSORBERS: One per wheel, no leaks, 2" travel in each direction.
15. BRAKES: Four-wheel brakes, no leaks, check brake pedal travel, no copper tubing, check length of flexible lines.
16. SCRUB LINE: No steering, suspension or chassis components should be below this line.

RECOMMENDED EQUIPMENT: May be reason for failure.

17. WINDSHIELD: Should be AS-1.
18. SHIFT PATTERN: Shift pattern should be visible except on three speed standard column shift.
19. FUEL LINES: Should be safely mounted and routed.
20. PARKING BRAKE: Should be activated independent of vehicle's primary system. LINE-LOCK is not recommended.
21. SELF-ALIGNING ROD END BEARINGS: Ball should have 1/8 inch spacer on each side of the ball if there is any misalignment. Rod ends should not have more than 10° misalignment. ROD ENDS and 4 BAR-PARALLEL RADIUS ROD SYSTEM rubber bushed ends should have a safety washer at least the same outside diameter as the housing or larger.
22. BRAKE LINES: Should be safely mounted and routed.
23. CHASSIS FASTENERS: Self-locking nuts, lock-washers, safety wire, or cotter pins.

Some of these rules are almost laughable! NO CLEAR PLASTIC FUEL LINES! For cryin' out loud! To me, making this a safety issue should be ludicrous! Who in their right mind would use clear plastic tubing for a fuel line? BUT, "they" did and "THEY" paid the consequences. Now it's one of NSRA's "23". Would that be to hard to comply with?

It's all good old commons sense people. It hurts none of us and it helps all!

Here is the link to the NSRA. Take the time, read through it this Sunday morning and come up with ways that you think "WE" can come up with our own "23".

DV...I love you guys...lets keep it safe!

[CobraDan]

Back in 1987 when I purchased my Cobra kit from Elegant Motors I did so because it would become a 1982 Corvette that looked like a Cobra. It didn’t have a homemade frame it was sitting on a 1982 Corvette frame, it weighs what a Corvette weighs and was crash tested as a Corvette. By 1982 the engines in Corvettes were not only small blocks but had no horsepower. Yes mine has a 1990 Chevy crate engine, a 454 LS1 that was put into 1970 Chevelle’s rated at 450HP. If I were doing that engine today it would be a 2003 Chevy crate engine, a ZZ572 cubic inch 620 horsepower engine. When I took my Cobra into retirement with me and finally finished the car I also went looking for insurance. This was before all the insurance talk on the forums. I contacted Parrish Heathcock and the first words out of the ladies mouth was she wanted to know if I had any experience driving a small car with a big engine. I had not told her what engine was in my Cobra replica, nor did she ever ask. She wanted to know if I had gone to any driving school. I told her that I had drag raced a car at one time, and she said that was fine I had experience and they signed me up to a very reasonable priced insurance policy for my Cobra. Later through the forums I heard that Parrish had to pay out for a Cobra mishap and that all Cobra policyholders were going to get a hefty increase and they would stop selling Cobra insurance. When my renewal came it was 2 ½ times what it had been. I did exactly what Parrish wanted I went elsewhere for my Cobra insurance. I’m now insured with American Hobbyist Insurance Agency, and back to my original rate. As far as accidents in Cobras other than the one in this post, we just had one of our members of the Deep South Cobra Club die with his passenger just last month. I remember the elderly gent from Ohio who had just bought a SPF and was driving with his nephew and was involved in an accident, the pictures posted looked bad. There were a few more but at this time I can’t remember them all. Why are the rates increasing because maybe the lady at Parrish was maybe right and also we are having far to many serious accidents with our toys? When I go to a car show I see many Hot Rods with much larger engines than we have in our Cobras and yes some weigh less than most Cobras, these cars are all insured. I know we all say save it for the strip or track, but how many have that big horsepower engine and have not put the pedal to the floorboards on the street? What can I do to help I don’t know but I will continue to follow your threads on this subject.
Dan Wulff

[klayfish]

DV, thanks so much for posting that list of 23. If we move forward with this, and I really hope we do, we'd need lots of help making a list designed for Cobras. We'd have to figure out how builders like yourself and other known Cobra builders can come up with the list, and not have any legal "responsibility" for it. How did the NSRA do it? By the way, that 40 Willys has steamroller tires on it, which should clue you off right away what is under the hood!!

As far as Casaleene's question, the insurance company won't put a "limit" on horsepower. I asked them that question specifically, and they told me no. They generally don't turn down street rods/muscle cars even if they have monsterous big blocks, because they've been shown to have a low loss rate and are good risks. Monster horsepower is OK, if they know it is in good hands and used responsibly.

We can do this. I think we HAVE to do this. I don't want to get rid of my Cobra, or have to park it. I have too much fun driving it.

Steve

[petek]

Coming to agreement on some items may be difficult, for example, roll bars. Single hoop or full width?

[mr bruce]

A few points and comments/suggestions. If a MFG tells you how to do something, that makes them liable. Build your car to Pennsylvania regulations(the TOUGHEST in the country). Title it according to YOUR states regs.( the forums still have cats discussing using "Title" services) (I'll bet half the cobras/streetrods on the streets ain't titled the right way) If you bought a car titled the wrong way, who is liable for it? Most of the Cobras won't pass the scrub line test, RIGHT FROM THE FACTORY!(enginerring?) Quit whinning about paying "high"? insurance premiums, $500-1000 for a $30K-50K car.Not many comments from our members eh? to busy arguing about big/block, small block, real/not real, etc. Why are Cobras considered the "bastard cat" by SEMA. How many MFGs belong to SEMA? More later.

[BLACKJACK]

STEVE - - D.V. - -

SOME OF THE "23" ARE NOT REALLY APPLICABLE TO COBRAS, ALSO THERE ARE A LOT OF ITEMS THAT SHOULD BE ON A "CHECK LIST" THAT ARE NOT THERE.

PART OF THE PROBLEM MIGHT BE IN STANDARDIZATION AMONG THE DIFFERENT STYLES OF COBRAS. IT COULD BECOME VERY CUMBERSOME IF WE HAD TO HAVE A CHECK LIST FOR EACH MANUFACTURER'S CAR. I KNOW VERY WELL THAT THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MY ERA AND MY EXCALIBUR. A STANDARDIZED LIST WOULD HAVE TO BE DEVELOPED.

HAVING A GOOD "SAFETY CHECKLIST" FOR OUR CARS IS A GREAT IDEA EVEN WITHOUT CONSIDERATION OF INSURANCE BENEFITS.

HOW WOULD YOU PROPOSE THAT THE LOGISTICS WORK WITH REGARD TO THE INSPECTIONS??? SOME THOUGHTS: - - - -

1. MANY OF US BELONG TO LOCAL COBRA CLUBS AND MANY OF OUR MEMBERS HAVE BUILT GREAT AND SAFE CARS FROM MINIMAL KITS. (ENGINEERS ARE LIKE LAWYERS - - THERE'S AT LEAST ONE IN EVERY GROUP).

A. THE CLUB COULD APPOINT A "CLUB SAFETY CO-ORDINATOR" WHO WOULD HELP OTHER MEMBERS GET THEIR CARS INTO COMPLIANCE, AND WOULD EITHER CONDUCT THE INSPECTIONS (IF HE'S QUALIFIED) OR SELECT A REPUTABLE SHOP TO DO THEM.

B. THOSE OF US WHO LIVE WITHIN A CONVENIENT DISTANCE FROM OUR CARS MANUFACTURER COULD HAVE THEIR WORK INSPECTED BY THE MANUFACTURER. OBVIOUS BENEFITS HERE FOR ALL CONCERNED.

C. PROFESSIONAL INDEPENDENT BUILDERS - - DV, JAY, DON AND OTHERS COULD CHARGE AN APPROPRIATE FEE FOR THE INSPECTIONS. I WOULD TRUST THESE GUYS WITH "ANY" BRAND OF COBRA.

D. LOCAL AREA SHOPS THAT PREP RACE CARS (SUCH AS "B.D.M." IN THE NO. VA. AREA) COULD CERTIFY COMPLIANCE WITH THE INSPECTION STANDARDS FOR A REASONABLE FEE.

2. GETTING BEYOND LOGISTICS AND INTO ADMINISTRATION - - -
(THIS MAY SOUND COMPLICATED AND CUMBERSOME BUT IT REALLY NEED NOT BE).

A. WE LIVE IN A VERY LITIGEOUS SOCIETY. (IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME - - JUST COUNT THE NUMBER OF LAWYERS WHO CAN AFFORD COBRAS). A SIMPLE CORPORATION COULD BE FORMED TO HELP "SCREEN" THE BELOW INDICATED PARTICIPANTS FROM UNWARRANTED LIABILITY. "DIRECTOR INSURANCE" IS ALSO AVAILABLE AT A REASONABLE COST FOR SMALL CORPS.

B. THE "CORPORATION" (READ "CLUB") COULD HAVE DIRECTORS CONSISTING OF PEOPLE LIKE D.V, JAY NORDSTROM, BOB PUTNAM, DAVE SMITH ETC, ETC, WHO WOULD SET THE "STANDARDS" AND APPOINT / APPROVE LOCAL - HIGHLY RESPONSIBLE - COBRA OWNERS AS "SAFETY CO-ORDINATORS".

C. THE SAFETY CO-ORDINATORS COULD SEARCH OUT AND SCREEN THE SHOPS IN THEIR AREA THAT WOULD BE APPROVED AS "AUTHORIZED SAFETY STATIONS", AND CO-ORDINATE WITH LOCAL CLUBS OR INDIVIDUALS ON GETTING THE INSPECTIONS PROPERLY ACCOMPLISHED.

THIS MAY SOUND LIKE A LOT OF WORK - IT'S REALLY NOT. ONCE THE STANDARDS HAVE BEEN AGREED TO BY THE "BOARD OF DIRECTORS" AND LOCAL SAFETY CO-ORDINATORS ARE CHOSEN, THE TRAIN WILL BE "ON THE TRACK" AND SHOULD ROLL ALONG RATHER SMOOTHLY.

I HAVE DEALT WITH GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACIES AND LARGE (NOT ALWAYS PROPERLY INFORMED) CORPORATE ENTITIES FOR MANY YEARS AND THE ONE THING THAT THEY ALL WANT TO SEE BEFORE THEY "BUY INTO" AN IDEA IS AN ORGANIZED PLAN ON PAPER. THE PLAN NEED NOT BE LARGE OR COMPLICATED - - IT JUST HAS TO MAKE SENSE TO THE PEOPLE READING IT.

A LOCAL "ADMINISTRATOR" COULD BE AVAILABLE TO HELP THE SAFETY CO-ORDINATOR IN MAINTAINING RECORDS (ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT) AND IN HANDLING CORRESPONDENCE WHEN NEEDED IN LARGER AREAS.

A REALLY SIGNIFICANT "SIDE BENEFIT" HERE IS THE OBVIOUS ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COBRA DRIVERS TO ASSOCIATE WITH, OR TO FORM, A LOCAL CLUB. THE MORE COBRA DRIVERS WE CAN GET INTO LOCAL CLUBS THE BETER THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY IS GOING TO BE. I'VE LEARNED FAR MORE ABOUT MY COBRAS AND DRIVING SAFETY FROM THE CAPITAL AREA COBRA CLUB MEMBERS THAN I WOULD HAVE EVER LEARNED (SAFELY) ON MY OWN. (THANKS WADE, DOC, ET ALL). I'VE ALSO HAD A HECK OF A LOT MORE FUN THAN I EVER WOULD HAVE HAD ON MY OWN. ADDITIONALLY, CLUB EVENTS SUCH AS ATTENDING DRIVING SCHOOLS TOGETHER, ETC. ARE FAR MORE CONDUCIVE TO INDIVIDUAL PARTICIPATION. A DRIVER WHO ASSOCIATES WITH A CLUB IS, INHERENTLY, GOING TO BE A SAFER DRIVER. HE / SHE HAS AN ENTIRE "POOL" OF EXPERIENCE (GOOD AND BAD) TO DRAW UPON AND TO LEARN FROM - - RATHER THAN HAVING TO GO OUT AND LEARN IT ALL BY THEMSELVES.

IN SUMMARY - - THE THINGS THAT I BELIEVE NEED TO BE IN PLACE BEFORE WE CAN REASONABLY APPROACH THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY ARE:

1. A VIABLE AND SPECIFIC SAFETY INSPECTION PROGRAM.

2. A FORMAL (REALLY SEMI-FORMAL) ADMINISTRATIVE PROGRAM WHICH WILL ORGANIZE AND CERTIFY THE SAFETY PROGRAM.

3. AN ADMINISTRATIVE STRUCTURE, IN PLACE, THAT WILL ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF THE INDIVIDUAL DRIVERS, THE CLUBS, THE INSURANCE INDUSTRY - - AND THE "ORGANIZATION". WE NEED A COMPLETE PACKAGE TO PRESENT TO THEM - - NOT A LOT OF GENERAL "RAMBLINGS". WE NEED TO "SPEAK TO THE INDUSTRY" IN ONE CLEAR, CONCISE AND ARTICULATE VOICE. (STEVE - - ARE YOU STILL WITH ME??)

4. WE COULD ALSO - ONLY HERE IT STARTS TO GET COMPLICATED - CERTIFY THE INDIVIDUAL DRIVERS. SUCH THINGS AS:

** CLUB MEMBERSHIPS - THE MORE THE MERRIER.

** DRIVING SCHOOLS OR COURSES ATTENDED.

** DRIVER EXPERIENCE AND DMV RECORDS (NOW THE PLOT GETS THICKER - ALTHOUGH FOR PRIVACY PURPOSES THE DRIVER COULD FURNISH HIS DMV REPORT TO THE CLUB IF HE/SHE CHOOSES).

THERE IS A LITTLE WORK IN SETTING THIS TYPE OF ORGANIZATION UP INITIALLY (NOT AS MUCH AS YOU MIGHT THINK) BUT, ONCE IN PLACE - IF IT'S DONE RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING - IT'A RELATIVELY "MAINTAINANCE FREE".

IN MY OPINION - - THIS EXERCISE HAS A LOT LESS TO DO WITH INSURANCE BENEFITS AND A LOT MORE TO DO WITH MAKING OUR CARS SAFER AND EACH OF US A BETTER DRIVER.

THESE ARE JUST A FEW OF MY "INITIAL" THOUGHTS ON THE MATTER.

WE SEEM TO HAVE DEVELOPED SOME MOMENTUM IN THIS DIRECTION - - LET'S KEEP IT ROLLING.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT - AND SAFE - DAY,

BLACKJACK

[casaleenie]

Mr. Bruce,

"Stick my head in the sand"????

"Quit whinning about paying "high"? insurance premiums"????

I haven't heard too much "whinning" about rates. The problem is insurance being available at ANY rate.


And "good morning to you"

DA

[BLACKJACK]

MR. BRUCE,

WE SURELY DO NOT WANT TO GET OURSELVES INVOLVED WITH THE "BUREAUCRACY".

WE NEED TO ESTABLISH OUR OWN "SAFETY SPECIFICATIONS" AND CRITERIA INDEPENDENT OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF ANY STATE OR COMMONWEALTH. WE KNOW OUR CARS BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE AND WE'RE FAR MORE CAPAPABLE OF "SETTING THE BAR" AT THE RIGHT HEIGHT.

WITH REGARD TO THE PROCESS OF TITLES OF OUR CARS - THAT SHOULD BE A MATTER OF THE IDIVIDUAL AND HIS/HER OWN LOCAL JURISDICTION. DUE TO THE NUMEROUS VARIATIONS AND COMPLICATIONS FROM STATE TO STATE, I BELIEVE THAT THAT DOG SHOULD BE LEFT "ON THE PORCH". WE SHOULD, HOWEVER, BE VERY METICULOUS IN ACCURATELY INFORMING THE INSURANCE COMPANY OF EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE ASKING THEM TO INSURE. FRAUDULENT MIS-REPRESENTATION IS UNIVERSALLY ONE OF THE REASONS THAT AN INSURER CAN FLATLY REJECT A CLAIM.

REGARDING ISSUES SUCH AS ROLL BARS - - MANY "ORIGINAL" COBRAS CAME WITHOUT ANY ROLL BAR. I BELIEVE THAT THE SAFETY REQUIREMENTS SHOULD ADDRESS THE BUILD QUALITY, DESIGN AND INTEGRITY OF A "STREET" CAR. "ORIGINALITY" OF THE CARS IS IMPORTANT TO A LOT OF US. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ASKING THE UNDERWRITERS TO INSURE.

WE'RE NOT TRYING TO GET THE CARS THROUGH "TECH INSPECTION". WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE THEM SAFER AND TO INSURE BUILD INTEGRITY.

FULL - AS OPPOSED TO "ORIGINAL" ROLL BARS, ROLL CAGES, FUEL CELLS, FIRE SUPRESSION SYSTEMS, HELMETS, HEAD AND ARM RESTRAINTS ARE GREAT FOR THE DRIVER WHO WANTS THEM BUT THEY SHOULD NOT BE ADDRESSED AS AN ISSUE WHEN CERTIFYING A CAR FOR THE "STREET". THE INSURERS WANT TO KNOW THAT THE CARS - BUILT BY YOU AND ME - ARE AS SAFE AND WELL CONSTRUCTED AS THE CARS ASSEMBLED BY ERA, SUPERFORMANCE, ETC. - - NOT A HUMMER OF A LINCOLN TOWN CAR.

THE MORE COMPLICATED WE MAKE THIS ISSUE THE LESS LIKELY WE ARE TO FIND IT RESOLVED IN OUR FAVOR. THERE IS AN OLD MAKETING AXIOM THAT STATES, "IF YOU CONFUSE THEM - - YOU LOSE THEM" IT'S SORT OF A CORROLARY TO THE "K.I.S.S." PRINCIPLE.

Y'ALL HAVE A REALLY GREAT AND SAFE DAY,

BLACKJACK

[wilf leek]

DV - if it would be of any use to you, I could copy the UK SVA manual and send it over to you. Whilst it is obviously UK and Euro-regulation specific, it is FAR more comprehensive than the 23 points you list above.
It takes a far bit of reading to comprehend, being a Government document and all, but it may give you a few more ideas. Things like mandatory brake system check lights (fluid level etc), brake tests, speedo accuracy, tyre speed ratings, chassis and suspension construction, etc etc etc.

email me if you want it. wleek2@aol.com

[petek]

Blackjack,

I'll grant you the roll bar; let me pick another item: door latches. Original or bear claw. Ack! No, the latches would be another non-build-quality issue. Frame? Nope. Body mounting? Perhaps.

Maybe the best solution is to address just a few areas: brakes, steering, suspension, drivetrain.

[klayfish]

Blackjack,
Excellent points, very well made. Thanks for the input. I'm not familiar with setting up corporations, or even "clubs" for that matter. This is just something I was thinking off the top of my head, since I know insurance is such a big problem, getting bigger, and I work for one of them. I can't sit idle while this is going on.
I see many benefits to a program like this.
1. Help ensure overall build quality. It's not saying a home builer isn't capable, it's just a double check system.
2. I believe, as Blackjack was stating, that members of such clubs tend to be more responsible drivers, and therefore much better insurance risks. Anyone who signs up for the club would agree to drive with common sense. It doesn't mean driving like a little old lady. Have a blast, show your car off, run it in professional, organized open track events, autox it...just use your head when driving on the street.
3. I also think it would help Cobra values. Someone who wanted to sell their car could have the added benefit of having their car "certified".

I agree that all of the kits are different, but so are the street rods, and they were able to come up with a standard list. There are some basics we can check for. As Petek said, steering, suspension, motor basics. Overall build quality (all nuts and bolts tight). I agree that it doesn't need to get too complicated, such as dual roll bars, fuel cells, etc... Just ensuring the cars are street legal and street safe.

Blackjack had some good ideas on how to get a club going. I think we should make the club a national group. We can get local coordinators who can help find local builders and/or shops to certify the Cobras once the list is created. As he said, hopefully it will lead to more local Cobra clubs and activities.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the manufacturers involvement in this. I think they may shy away due to liability fears. But I would hope they will "morally" support the idea and encourage customers to participate.

This concept is really simple. We can do it, and I really believe it will work. We'll just need to get the ball rolling and stick with it.

I can't see how it won't help our cause for insurance.
1. We get our cars "certified" for safety
2. We drive smart
3. We then go to the insurance companies (which I will be happy to do), and show them "Hey, we're here. We have organized into a group, had our cars inspected for safety, and check our driving records" If our cars are safe and our records are clean, I would hope that insurance will be much easier for us to come by. It certainly won't hurt. I see no real downsides to this.

Please let's keep this ball rolling. Other ideas? Who can help come up with the safety list? Help create the membership forms? Come up with a group name? We can do this. We HAVE to do this.

Steve