How much would you pay for an aluminum body?

[David Kirkham]

Now that you all have seen our replacement body for a 427 Cobra...How many of you really want one? (For an original car, or for your own car.)

We sold the one on e-bay for $12,950 and actually had 4 of them in stock. One of our customers found out and bought the remaining three before we could sell the rest of them.

Which brings me to the poll.

How much would you pay for an aluminum body with all of the proper hood, trunk, and door, tubes already riveted in and the hood, trunk, and doors already mounted. Hood scoop would be included. All of the riveting would be done and you could rather easily retrofit it to an existing car.

You would really only have to fabricate the tubing to make it fit whatever manufacturer's car you wanted. The job would not be that difficult. Now, I have been doing this for 10 years now, so maybe my idea of "not too difficult" is different than most.

Your thoughts?

Thank you so much for participating and posting your thoughts. We are using this as real industry research.

David

[mr bruce]

I have close to 35+ years experience building all sorts of racecars/hotrods,even a "real" cobra or two, etc. so here's my thoughts. Cobbling your body onto another mfg's frame dilutes your product.Few are going to have the skills to do it rite. if they pay some one to do it for them,the cost runs up, making it no longer economicaly sane, why not just buy the body /frame assembly from you that IS done rite . There are many suspension parts out there on production cars that are so close to fitting the cobra, you would think the engineers designed them for a cobra.Work on this aspect, price your body/frame assembly in the $18K range, you will crush the industry .

[mrmustang]

David,

Have to agree with Mr Bruce on this one.....Besides, you and I have spoken about this in the past (gee, I wonder where the Smiths came up with the idea of using one of your bodies on their chassis) .....Why not simply design some new pick up points for the current chassis if your going to look at an alternate route.......$6,500 for a suspension (not complete mind you), and $1,200 for a steering system is not conducive to turning out a higher volume of work for your labor force....Do you want to cater to a select few who can afford to spend the really big bucks on a Cobra replica, or do you want to cater to the masses....Only you, your family, and your accountant can decide that one...........


Sincerely,

Bill S.

[David Kirkham]

Gents,

You do not know how much I appreciate your resonses. Thank you for taking the time to respond. We are really looking into all aspects of pricing and marketing. What suggestions would you have to get the price of the suspension/steering lower. Many of the parts in the suspension we don't make...such as bearings. Our costs on bearings is quite high. (Remember, there are 6 rod ends in the rear suspension.)

Thanks for your responses,

David

[KeithBrown]

David,

I think what you guys are doing is great! For those who are financially fortunate, you already offer the best replica of an original around. I think it is great that you are considering alternatives to those of us who have to watch the pennies. I congratulate you on your passion to further the market. I really like the 289 FIA hybrid concept and would imagine that there are those who would love to drop an AL body on there already existing chassis.

You guys are changing the market dynamics and are to be congratulated for your efforts.

Regards,

Keith

[JWheaton]

David,

I would be concerned with support. While I am sure that your group would answer all the questions that it could there would be some that would fall to the frame manufacturer. I would love to have an aluminum bodied Cobra. I would not have the capability to manufacturer the tubes. I am sure that I could learn how, but then there is the cost of the equipment to do so.

You might want to talk to the manufacturers and ask them if they might want to have it as a purchase option. You could then work with the manufacturers to reduce the number of potential build questions down from who knows how many to the number of manufacturers you work with.

Just my .02 worth of post here.

Jamie

[Excaliber]

Wheaton! Theres a thought! A replica you could order with an "option" of using a Kirkham body? Hmmm,,,I wonder if any builder would got for that.

Ernie

[Bart Carter]

Factory Five had an aluminum body (Kirkham?) and wanted to offer it as an option for a rumored $7,000.

At the SEMA show we were told they dropped the idea. I don't know the real reason. I was told the the body took a lot of work before painting and the price wasn't consistant with their market.

They offered a carbon fiber body, but don't anymore. I have heard that 24 of them were sold for $3,000 each. Stronger and lighter than fiberglass, that would be a good deal, but I guess a 2000 lb car vs a 2100 lb car is not worth $3,000 to most.

But aluminum is a different story.

I think the best way to go would be to either design a new donor type of chassis/suspension or work with a manufacturer to design an attachment "kit" or option for their cars. But it would need to be an manufacturer that doesn't use the body/panels as part of the frame structure. That would eliminate a lot.

Does anyone know the weight difference between an aluminum body and a fiberglass one?

So, can David give us any insight about the Factory Five decision?

[Red Era]

If you are looking for ideas, have you thought about making hoods ,doors, trunks for other cars? This is one area you can easily tell they are fiberglass cars. ?????

[mr bruce]

Dave. If you're trying to stay period correct, then your parts are basically the answer. If you want to fit modern components, then here's an example: the differential. I think you said some time ago that you had $3000 in machine work alone, plus gears, bearings, etc. A brand new 8.8 Ford motorsports assembly is $700. What does that save alone ,$3K+? Big deal to fit in you frame ,20 minutes and coupla pieces of 3/16ths plate.Another: upper control arm, yours$250?. How about NASCAR specification(4130,tig welded, .120 wall tubeing ) $65 . There are many more examples.If I was a little more liquid rite now, I'd go for that leafspring car on e-bay and show you how easy it would be.Remember"price sells cars"

[Excaliber]

One approach is of course small exclusive market for your product, higher retail price. Ferrari, Lambo many others take this approach. There is some evidence that is changing for some. Jaguar, Mercedes, BMW are examples. Selling more "entry" level cars than ever before. The other classic approach example might be FFR. Make a LOT of them and sell at a good price. Both ways can work.

Hooking up with a "mass" manufactuer has largely been the key for the many of these "exclusive builders". Being able to adapt to smarter quicker ways to assemble, and yet they are able to retain the "old world" and more "exclusive" feeling for their product.

I see Lambo's going this way, Ferrari certainly. There are STILL expensive, exclusive cars, but "value" and reliablilty are FAR enhanced from what they were. A direct result of "hooking up" with the big boys.

Jaguar is now "main stream" with their small cars, far different than even a few years ago! Good? Bad? Whatever, it seems to be working. I hate it myself, I used to "dabble" in Jaguar used cars and the market just FELL OUT after the new models came out! Nobody wants an XJS anymore at a price I can make any money on!

If Kirkhams go with a "body" for your replica frame approach I would think it would be more like the Ferrari move. STILL exclusive to a degree, but more affordable than before. I'm not sure there is an FFR type market (mass production) for Alum bodies. But, what the heck do I know!

Ernie

[xlr8or]

I think if there were an option for a 8.8 or 9 inch rear with a modern independant A arm front and coil overs front and rear that could cut considerable cost and make the alloy cars more popular. Maybe a way to use a Flaming River rack?? The down side is, would it dilute the high end period correct version?

I know Mercedes worried about this for years in the US market. They finally introduced that 190e at the entry level back in the 80's and didn't do as much damage as expected to the top end.
There just has to be something to signify which class of car it is.
Maybe a perky butt for the lower priced car.


Just my $.02

Scott

[STEVE POTTS]

I agree w/ mr. bruce...make a frame that will accept a less expensive suspension system...ford 8.8 irs rear...independent front suspension shouuld be easy to find....there are many on the market that are good and inexpensive. Make a special frame at kirkham to accept the aluminum body and suspension mentioned above...sell the body and frame as a kit and give the recipe to the buyer for the suspension. I would buy one in a minute...only problem is that there would be a flood of fiberglass cars on the market...used fiberglass cobra prices would fall.

[David Kirkham]

Factory Five,

Well, I guess we can finally put all those rumors to rest. I even got a call from the man on this one.

We sold one, uno, jeden, body to FFR. Hey, if someone calls you up and wants a body, what are you going to tell them...go away?

FFR bought a body and used it for experimentation/marketing. I really never spoke to them about it very much. I don't know how much they wanted to sell them for, or if they were even very serious. They were quite nice guys though.

As for our body on someone else's frame...

We are interested in selling cars and expanding the market for everyone. Many people have told us we would ruin our name by putting our body on other people's chassis'. Well, we think people's rides are by and large works of art--regardless of who made the chassis. Everyone is proud of their ride and what kind of snob would I be telling them they can't put our body on their car?

Now, financially speaking...I don't know if we can do it or not. That is why I am taking this poll. I sincerely thank everyone for their responses. I do appreciat it and I can tell you we discuss it at work.

Mr. Bruce,

You are correct. There is a whole bunch of work to make one of those bodies fit if you are not familiar with the work. I have seen some great work out there by enthusiasts...but it will be a lot of work.

As for making a retrofit kit for a particular manufacturer's chassis...I am not sure which one would be the best. That is why we left it as it was. Hey, who can complain...we sold 4 of them within a week of their arrival in the States.

Thank you for all the comments on differentials, control arms, etc. I am listening.

David

[ALLEN ENGLISH]

MR. Kirkham, I didn't know about your cars when I purchased my FFR almost 2 years ago, but even if I did I couldn't have afforded one being the blue coller worker I am. I think that they are on to something with the Frame and Suspension and Body thing .
The thing that attracted me to the FFR was the use of Modern Ford Suspension pieces, they were readily available to buy,( a big plus for the guy that doesn't want a trailer queen), and if it breaks it won't cause a divorce to maintain the car . I will have arround 40K in my car when finished, and would rather have had an aluminum bodied car , but that's all my dream could afford. Also, I think it would be great for you to have a couple of car levels to buy at. Just my .02 worth as one of the consumers of the masses.

PS: No Offence Intended ! Your cars are the best of the best !

[aumoore]

David
You asked "How much would you pay for an aluminum body with all of the proper hood, trunk, and door, tubes already riveted in and the hood, trunk, and doors already mounted. Hood scoop would be included. All of the riveting would be done and you could rather easily retrofit it to an existing car."

I would say this is worth about 10K for the body but you will find many manufacturers reluctant to sell just a frame as most probably make more on the body than the frame. Now if you would work with a few of the smaller manufacturers so they could offer a Kirkham ready frame sans body that they could make money on then you might have something. For example: Randy Hunter offers a body and frame package for around $6000 and I woudl say most of the cost is the body. Now if you could work with someone like him so he could offer a "Kirkham Ready" frame and inner panel package then he might be able to offer for about the same as what he sells his basic body and frame package. His frame uses C4 corvette suspension pieces which are all aluminum and made for performance. His roller including body goes for about $11k and if he could offer the Kirkham ready package for the same then you could have a really nice start to a aluminum cobra for $21k. There would be less body work I assume on your aluminum body so you could finish this car for around $40k if you were not looking for a 427 side oiler. maybe $50k with a sideoiler.

You should consider working with a few of the small manufacturers who are willing to do custom work. I bet Randy would be interested.

I do not think any of the manufacturers depend on the fiberglass tub to support the chassis. Does it stiffen it? Probably but not by much. Besides the originals had fiberglass foot wells.

[Excaliber]

,,,wonder if DV could put one of them metal bodies on a Classic R. Couple of hack saw blades, a grinder, bada boom bada bing! lol

Ernie

[John A. Simpson]

I had a great time at your place in October, been racking my brain trying to figure out how to afford one of your cars and keep my wife. I don't think its a problem to spend $30-$40K on a car cause that's what a person would spend on BMW, or some other nice sports car. Like the others I wonder if you could use the alum Lincoln IRS diff., and maybe find a front spindle that is mass produced to use like ERA does. I'm refinancing my home at 4.75% so maybe I will have to decide between the 427 and the FIA hybrid. Another thought, just because you offer a lower price alternative to the authentic replica doesn't take anything away from the people who want every nut and bolt as it was in the 60's. ie, a Z/28 doesn't dilute the Z06. Personally I would hate to put one of your beautiful bodies on a less competent chassis, especially since I've seen how much it takes to make one handle properly (like Alison and Nate Hines).

Hope this helps.

John

[BT SNAKE]

Dave,
Here is a street rod comnpany that has a lot of choices for the same cars. They will make it the way you want it.
They have a good price structure and it gives the consumers choices. I often wondered why the cobra manufacturers were not similar. http://www.zigsstreetrods.com/Pages/...hassis3334Ford

The price for a totally decked out chassis is under 8K and thats with a whole bunch of goodies. One of the lesser adorned chassis is much less because it doesn't have the chrome and billit stuff.
If the street rod manufacturers can do it so can the Cobra manufacturers.take a look at Outlaw Performance
https://www.mbcomp.com/secure/Outlaw...ite/index.html
They have a complete 1941 Willys with all the good stuff like power windows, R&P steering, pro stock rear, and a whole lot more for under 20K. This price can also be lowered by removing items that the consumer may not want.
Really what you want to do is is design a modern type chassis that will except one or all of your aluminum bodies.
I agree that this in no way will infringe on the current market for "original specs cobras". Personally I prefer a more modern type suspension. I really like late model corvette componants. They have IRS and a real neat front setup . most all the A-arms are aluminum. coil overs are easily adapted to this set up as well instead of the fiber leaf spring. Thousands of street rods run these componants because they are easy to get and they offer superior handling . But really, there is hundreds of componants available to you for a good solid chassis platform that will be a good product at a lower price. And yes it will require a little R&D.

Hersh

[David Kirkham]

Hersh,

Thanks for the information. I will check into it. We are doing some more work on this. It seems like a viable option.

I really appreciate all of the responses. This is a great site for information and questions of all sorts.

David