Enough Dead Cobra Owners! Enough Wrecked Cars!

[Gordon Claunch]

Pat....BS

[mrmustang]

Turk,

I believe the problem is not with the amount of Cobra owners out there, but the 800% increase in claims from all Cobra owners (real and replica) over the last two years.....(Yes, I said 800% increase by the way)......This is not, I repeat not just a number thrown around as arbitrary, but is a very factual number floating around the upper levels of the insurance industry., which is why new and old owners of Cobras are having such a difficult time getting insurance coverage for their cars.......I myself had to jump through hoops to get coverage for the latest Cobra to grace my garage, and I have no tickets and accidents, and have years of SCCA, and other high performance car ownership (90% vintage) and driving courses under my belt (for those reading this, I highly recommend a Bob Bondurant course, even though he switched over to Vettes from the Mustangs)......This is a problem that will not go away, and will only get worse before it gets better. By starting up an organization similar to the hot rod groups, we are showing the insurance industry that we are attempting to "self police" our own community (so to speak). It's a start......


Just my own rambling two cents worth on this particular subject so early on a Saturday morning............


Yours In Fords,

Bill S.

PS: I guess the major problem is not with your experience, but how you use it..........You think "I know what I'm doing" right up to the point you lose control of your car and yourself. Even then, you get people who will still say "I know what I was doing"...These are the people that will never get it....NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dan Semko]

Bill,
Tell it it's not true.....you don't really believe, let alone accept that insurance quote do you? I've heard that same logic by our malpractice carrier for 23 years as they pass a new rate increase. You just went through a medical crisis and certainly have some experience with your own private health insurance. Let's review the drill "the doctors fees are above usual and customary fees"....I bet you've waded through that verbal diarrhea and spoken with the weakest link in the claims office masquerading as a claims agent. Ask them to show you the names, the records and guess what, they won't because they can't. If if you think they're not THAT smart, think about the REAL reason behind the latest implementation of HIPAA regulations. Is it really to protect you....if you believe that I have a CSX worth $250k to sell you right now!

[klayfish]

Turk,
I guess we'll never see eye to eye on this.

My thoughts are so simple (I'm not capable of complicated thoughts, I work for an insurance company ).

Why NOT form a Cobra charter group? I don't think I've ever said that I think it would save everyone's life, stop all accidents, gaurantee insurance and cure cancer all at the same time. Nor have I ever said the sky is falling. What I feel is that Cobras can be very dangerous in the wrong hands, more so than most cars on the road.

There has been more than one fatality with Cobras. I don't have all the numbers, and wouldn't pretend to. But I know there was a double fatality earlier this year. When I talk about the insurance "problem", it's not just getting insurance itself. It's more a matter of what it is a symptom of. I'm not sure where Bill got his numbers on increase in Cobra claims, not that I doubt him, but there is a REASON they are dropping us. From my lengthy conversations with Great American, it is due to the number of Cobra claims vs. the number of Cobras they insure. Plus the types of accidents they are seeing. They have indicated that most Cobra wrecks are single car, and spins off an offramp, around a corner, something like that. And they are severe. Don't forget, I'd bet that for every crash we hear about on the forums, there are probably many who don't participate on the forums and we don't hear about their crashes.

Is a "sticker" going to change someones' driving habits? Of course not, and I wouldn't ever say it would. All I would like to do is create the group that will encourage participation in autox, open track, bracket drag racing at a sanctioned event.

I don't recall saying before that I feel peoples' cars are assembled poorly. What I said was that this is a concern I heard from the insurance companies, and I was passing that info along. Besides, I see nothing wrong with having my car double checked before it goes on the track. And when DV and I started trying to assemble this, safety was a part of it then too.

I do not now, or ever in the future intend to tell anyone what to do with their cars. I would not encourage people to "turn each other in", it is none of my damn business. All I hope is that members of the group will drive responsibly on the street, and do the racing things I described above. It works for other groups, why can't it work for us?

I just don't understand the fear. Hell, I don't care if people want to throw me out of the forums for talking about this. I feel strongly that we can do something to help ourselves. It won't end all the problems, but I just don't see how it can hurt.

Steve

[casaleenie]

[quote]Originally posted by PatBuckley


[b]Casaleenie,

I am reading all this holier than thou stuff from a lot of people about how they never speed , never street race, drive their Cobras slower than their street cars, etc. in the same breath they are pissing on this poor guy who just got killed. Give me a break! Remember - it could just as easily have been any one of us who got killed - who among us has not taken our cars over a hundred - just once? Be honest. What if a tire blew out, or something, at that time....?

Sorry PAL, but no, it couldn't just as easily have been any one of us who got killed... Some people just don't take the stupid chances other people take... Sure, I could get broadsided or have a tire blow out and loose control but it would not be in a racing situation... Was the posting a little pompous? Possibly...
Have I ever had a car up to 100mph.. NOOOO! Sorry, but just never did it... I've had cars going faster then they should have been going but not to 100. I've jumped on the car but never to perform for anyone... and never with a passenger in it.. I've got a lot more learning to do in that car...
and I can survive the fact that you question the posting... It's just a burden I'll have to bear... I can flat live with that....

Here's another one for you .... I never took drugs....or smoked a joint..... Deal with it!!!!!

[PatBuckley]

Glad you brought that up.

I know you took drugs - you said yourself you smoked for 25 years.....oh right, that is different!

Get real, pal.

[Turk]

Great debate.
It is very possible in the past Cobras were such a splinter group that the insurance companies did not have a category just for us.

They were all hotrods, specially constructed vehicles, or whatever. Now the insurance companies are taking note of the increased numbers of Cobras and have decided to categorizedus, as such. There were probably no statistics kept on us, and now there are. Thus the 800% increase.

Bill this is so much like the daily self serving stats I get from General Motors.
Escalade sales are up 39% from two years ago! Sure they are. Two years ago we were only building a few, now we are building more.

My homeowner's policy went from $575.00 to $995.00 to $1950.00 this year. guess what, I have two less people living in the house the kids and the liabilities they could bring are gone. I have no claims against any insurance company, yet they saw fit to increase my premiums by %400.

That is why I believe our attempts to get along with the insuarance companies will fall to deaf ears. They have their own agenda.

There are hell of a lot more homeowners out there, than there are Cobra owners. They are not hesitating to screw the homeowners, it is naive to think we will fare better.

TURK

[BANDIT 1]

In my opinion the reason that insurance companies are getting "edgy" about the Cobra is not because of the all of a sudden "epedemic of bad Cobra drivers", but the fact that the Cobra has gotten so popular recently. In the last couple of years the small convertible sports cars have become very popular and very fast. Everyone is making a little convertible sports car (we all know a convertible car is not as safe as a hardtop...). Since these type of cars have become popular people have looked into the "ultimate" little convertible sports car, the Cobra. You see the Cobra in TV shows like "John Doe" and "Fast Lane", just to name a few.

I have seen in the last two years Cobra's being sold like crazy, there are new companies popping up everywhere. I also think that there are more Cobra's being sold because they are being made "better" and "safer" than ever before. Let's face it, even 5 - 10 years ago "kit car" was a bad word (even now, "kit car" manufacturers are "unjustly" being frowned upon due to some of the early "kit cars").

My point is this, there are more Cobra's being sold then ever, and with that there are going to be more wrecks and more insurance companies are going to "freak out" because they are going to see the name Cobra more than they ever have. When the average insurance company see's a increase in claims they are going to look into it, and they are going to try to find out "why?". When your average Joe looks at a 2500 pound 400+ horsepower car with no air bags, no ani-lock brakes, etc... they are going to get scared. The insurance compaines I have found to have a problem with Cobra's have all told me the same thing. They are afraid of 400+ horsepower cars that have been "put together" by what they call "the average consumer". They are not informed enough to know that alot of "kit cars" are now being professionaly built and delivered as "turn key" cars.

[Turk]

Klayfish,
We don't see eye to eye on this for few reasons. The attempts may have more credibilty if there were some promises from some, or even ONE insurance company that they would do this or that if we did this or that.

For DV or yourself to take it upon yourself to form an organization on the premise that we may voluntarily join if we wanted to because it will do us good is unbelievable.

What clout do you guys think you will have with my insurance company here in California, because there is an Ohio based Cobra Association?

Who decided all this.
Did we all vote and appoint someone to act on our behalf?

Is DV or you the best qualified persons to do this? I know I am NOT.We have lawyers, politicians and folks of different skill levels within this group.How come thier talents are not solicited.
Last I heard DV's lawyer was looking into this. What type of law does DV's lawyer specialize in?

No one got polled, no one chose any leaders and here we are taking the opportunity upon death of another Cobra owner to float the same old thing.

When you talk about National organizations of any sort, it should have some more of a quarum than a few well meaning people wanting to do something for ALL of US.

I see no evidence of any good coming out of such an attempt. I see evidence of dues coming out of such an attempt.

One question keeps popping up and and is going unanswered. if you are not going to be able to confirm Cobras to such and such HP, safety and speed limits what is it that you guys think you will be offering an Insurance company that they will see an advantage in it for them.

Just a mailing list of eligable members won't do it. If an insuarance company is interested in a group rate and they have some requirements of us, that would make us all eligible for some fair treatment, have them come in the Club Cobra and take advantage of the existing 6000 or some names and have them tell us what is it that they want.

Let's not serve ourselves to them under the pretense of some national group. We ain't one.

They either want our business or they don't. We are an insignificant group.
Like I said before, Harley Owners, VW owners, Taurus owners is a group with far more clout than the one you guys want to organize. I don't see them getting any special considerations.

"Cobra is dangerous in the wrong hands"? yes we know that. What will this organization do to reverse that?

I also know that the accidents as cited by Great American pretty well describes the type of accidents we are having. Again, how will what you are trying to do change that?

They are in the insurance business, and that includes risk taking. That is what they get paid to do. Often they get out of this or that coverage, because there is no money in it for them.

I don't hold the insurabnce industry at as high a pedastal as others do, Otherwise they wouldn't have an Insurance comminiioner in all 50 states trying to regulate their butts.
They are not in it for the charity, they are not our friends, they are just a business trying to make a buck.

I still for the life of me, can NOT understand how you are going to make us all safer, so the insurance companies will come running to us.

If I am going to drive my car like a maniac, and drunk and race every Tom Dick and Harry who crosses my path, how in the world my $25.00 dues to some organization going to change that.

Try getting a concealed weapons permit in California. Tell them you belong to NRA. They don't appear to be impressed. Are we going to have more significance and numbers than NRA?

Aren't there enough organizations that encourages "autocross","open track", and "bracket racing" already. Why will this sanctioniong body with 150 members or so get any more accomplished than they do already.
Is this gonna be bigger than SAAC?

Sanctioned events? Are we going to have to drive to Ohio, or are you guys coming to California for us to participate in such events?

I don't know guys. I am very seldom as passionate about something as I have been on this. I suppose I am well regulated enough in California that , one more group or an entity who is thinking about telling me what to do is making the hair stand in the back of my head.
Nothing personal. I will remain in opposition.

TURK

[KobraKarl]

Fellas,

Insurance companies are jacking rates for every kind of insurance acrcoss the board.

A long time freind and career insurance guy ( ceo of national company ) sat at the bar and explained insurance to me years ago;

If insurance companies had to pay claims out of premiums they would go broke in a couple years.

Insurance companies are only in the insurance business as a secondary consideration. They make their money, and pay a portion of claims from the returns they get in wall street investing particularly loaning to large commercial real estate.

Your insurance premium has been subsidised by the stock market for the last decade.............and you know what happened to the stock market..........now all these companies have to pay claimes from premiums.....and they were not prepared to have to do that,.. so.............................

every account is now going to get scrutinized, every loser is going to get canned, and every marginal market is going to get jacked ...period.

On the brighter side ,...as soon as they can start being highly profitable in the stock market again , they will be out there scrambling and competing for our insurance / investment dollars and rates will drop.

Me...? I paid an extra $12.000 this last year to cover my bussinesses alone .

Karl

[mrmustang]

Dan and Turk,

The figures quoted where from a senior VP of an insurance company (who happenes to be an uncle of mine) that does not even write automobile policies, He is the one who came to me after reading about the rise in "Cobra" related claims.....I'll take his word for it, as he has nothing to lose, nor gain from it..In fact, he is ordering a Cobra (replica) within the next few weeks,.....Whether you want to believe it or not guys, it is still fact (at least what is being spoken of from within the insurance industry as a whole)................


Bill S.

PS: Think about this, with the 40,000+ Cobras (real and replica) out there, and with less than 4,000 CC members, just how many accidents and claims do not get reported here........We are not the center of the universe, there are still lots of folks who have no clue that Club Cobra exists....................Time for that wake up call........Ring, ring.......hello who is this.........Reality calling (collect I might add).........

[CSX 4039]

The logic of a Cobra safety awareness group, or whatever, escapes me. A true oxymoron. They are high powered, lightweight, low to the ground, open air vehicles utterly devoid of any meaningful safety features absent a seat belt. And in fact, we all who bought or manufactured our cars in the last twenty years had to go through efforts to specifically AVOID safety and environmental laws on the books.

I have a lot of fun in my life. Lots. But, I am very much like Casaleenie. In fact, I go the heretofore unmentioned effort to even avoid large public gatherings where idiots tend to congregate. Don't miss it a bit. I would not get killed along side the road changing a tire, either. I would, and have, trashed the tire to drive to a safe area. No sense getting the AAA guy killed either. And, don't feel sorry for me. As I said, I have a he;;uva lot of fun in my life. One of the benefits of working as hard as I have, I guess, is that there is very little traffic on "the extra mile".

[klayfish]

Turk,
I guess we can go back and forth on this for days, but let me try to address some of your points.

I think you are focusing on the insurance companies even more than I am. Yes, I hope to have an effect on the insurance companies, but that is not the sole basis for this idea. I'll be the first to tell you we will not get a promise from an insurance company. They will look and consider, but I wouldn't ask for a promise. What I have been told is that they DO recognize organized groups and watch their records. That is exactly why there is often a question on applications that asks if you belong to a car club. But the insurance companies is just one issue.

I don't pretend to have any personal clout with your insurance company or even the one I work for. I won't speak for DV, but I'd think he agrees with me on that. The way I see it, it doesn't matter if it is based in Ohio or California. It just has to start somewhere I guess. I would hope the group as A WHOLE will have some clout with insurance companies. Maybe alliances with other groups will help too. I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.

Nobody decided anything yet. DV and I were not appointed anything by anyone. I absolutely agree there should be votes and open discussion if a group were to be formed. If you voted for me to be totally banned, then so be it. Whether you believe it or not, I want no personal glory from this. Is it so wrong because DV and I are the ones suggesting the idea? This IS a democracy and if it is going to happen, everyone interested should have equal say.

I don't know who is the most qualified to set it up. I don't claim that I am. I am not a lawyer or know much about forming a group such as this. This is exactly why I'm posting this on these forums. I'm hoping people who know a lot more about it than me can help. I don't know DVs lawyers or what they are doing. I BEG lawyers, politicians or any other person with clout, knowledge or anything at all to offer to help out! Please!

I know nothing about dues or how much, if any, there would be. I hadn't even thought that far ahead yet. This is all new to me. I'd hope we could do something without dues, but I have no clue.

I would not propose any kind of limit on horsepower (hell, I want all the power I can get), any radical safety features on the cars or mandatory schools. I think what we would offer to insurance companies is an organized group who is showing that we are responsible group as a whole.

Yes, insurance companies are businesses.

How would our organization change the type of accidents being seen by insurance? I can't give an honest answer to that for sure. I would hope that as a group, we would all have a low loss rate and that will be attractive to insurance companies. How is the NSRA successful?

I agree that if someone is hellbent on driving their car like a maniac, no group is going to change that. But I do hope that encouraging autox, open track, etc... will reduce the accidents on the streets caused by driving error. As I said before, I know several racers who have said that since they started racing, they have much less urge to drive wildly on the street.

When I said sanctioned events, I didn't mean sanctioned by the Cobra group. What I mean to say was sanctioned by the SCCA, or other established driving schools, drag strips and such. I mean to encourage members of our groups to attend those. I agree with you that a group as small as ours probably would be would not be able to "sanction" their own events. Though I would like to come out to California some day to run with you guys.

Now these are just my personal thoughts, and on the whole, I'll be the first to agree they don't mean anything alone. I again beg of anyone else who can or is willing to help, PLEASE DO!!! I'm just the one proposing the idea. I fully admit I don't know what to exactly do next. I would just like to see something done.

Steve

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Turk;

Evidently from your replies you do not like insurance companys very much,that's o-k with me.... but remember,you need them to insure your car,so why not try to get along????

Let me give you and all some examples of how and why premiums are set....In the parish (county) where I live, the insurance company I work for insures about 5,000 vehicles. Out of that number I'd guess there are no more than 20 insured as "specialty" vehicle (classics-antiques-street rods),we have no Cobras insured in this parish.... If one of these vehicles is involved in an accident,then the payout comes from a "pool" of 20 premiums,on the other hand,if my mother-in-law has an accident,the payout comes from a "pool" 5000 premiums....The insurance industry looks at the premium taken in vs. the payout for all accidents in any group of cars be it Fords-Chevys or Cobras.... Since the Cobra market is soo small, just a few claims make in not very profitable...

I'd guess the average total loss payout that I work around here is less than $20,000.00 per vehicle,remember that is only an average, what is the average Cobra worth???? a hell of a lot more!!!!!!!!!! The recent Cobra accidents not only involved totalling high dollar cars,but in the last case a fatality. Fatalitys are high dollar payouts not counting the injured passenger's bills and claim, so in general insuring Cobras is just not a good deal for any insurance company, plain and simple..... The money they take in does not cover the money they pay out,that's why companys are shying away from them....

The same was true for street rods and is happening to Cobras right now,they banded together and formed NSRA and made a difference,that is all Klayfish is talking about,he and DV should be congratulated for even thinking of trying to make a "difference". If this does come to pass and I hope it does,it will not happen over night,it"ll take time,but it can be done... I have several friends with street rods and have talked to them at length about NSRA and have seen how they have made a difference.... The company I'm insured with for my Mustang (specialty insurance) will not blink an eye at a street rod with an NSRA sticker,but will surely think twice and look at any Cobra very hard before saying anything about insuring it...

You can not regulate people or how they drive or what they drive and I do not ever want to see anyone even try,but if Cobra owners got together to show that they are for the most part responsible owners and drivers,than I think the insurance industry will certainly take note. There will always be accidents no matter who you are and what you drive,but at some point we need to try and change the image of the average Cobra owner,just like years ago the image of the Harley owners was not the greatest,but over time it has changed....

Auto insurance in general is not a profitable business,homeowners insurance and life insurance is where any company makes it's money. I can quote you numbers till my fingers are tired of typing,but, suffice it to say auto insurance is a losing propsition as far as making a profit goes......

Remember, that Cobra owners need the insurance industry on their side more than the insurance industry needs Cobra owners to insure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Respectfully;

David

[Russ Dickey]

You guys are scaring the crap out of me. I'm afraid to even call my American Family agent (especially if he read my earlier comments on this thread).

How much (ballpark) will I have to pay per year to insure a Cobra with an agreed value of $50K? I'm 31 with no tickets since '91.

Thanks,
Russ

[G.R.]

Russ,

FWIW- I pay close to $900 a year, $50k Agreed value/max deduct,plus max liability/comp(only way they would insure)no limited mileage per yr(good thing)also I've been w/ the company now for 25 +yrs or so and have all my other insurance with them and have not had a moving violation in 22 years, my wife has never had one, 4 claims over the years, 3 theft related one accident--bad road conditions, never ticketed--I'm 54

I know a lot of the guys pay far less than I do but i trust doing businesswith my company and agent

[Excaliber]

I been looking for insurance, so far State Farm turned me down, the local office had no idea HOW to figure out the value of my car.

Progressive Insurance quoted $1300 a year, 250 deductible, value based on Kelly Blue Book. Yeah, Excaliburs are weird like that, they actually have a "Kelly book" value ($34K on mine).

I thought $1300 was to high, still shopping. At least being a "real" car it gives me more options.

Ernie

[searanch]

[quote]Originally posted by casaleenie
Have I ever had a car up to 100mph.. NOOOO!
Here's another one for you .... I never took drugs....or smoked a joint..... Deal with it!!!!!/QUOTE]

...hmmmmm

It would appear that I have done everything you claim not to have done and plan to do even more...

hehe...

[Dan Semko]

Martin,
You did ALL those things and got a ticket for speeding also?
You didn't engage in pre-marital sex did you?
You are a REAL Gashole, I respect that and consider you a friend.

Denial is an amazing thing. It's similar to looking at Playboy, Penthouse or Hustler and stating unequivocally you do it only for the "articles". Right, and that's the reason you turn the pages with your LEFT hand.

The insurance debate is a snow job. Why, because when in the apple orchard compare similar apples. The idea that cobras by "name" are categorized rather than similar "replacement value cars" is trying to pull the proverbial wool over someones eyes. If they use vehicles that cost an average of $50k in the same category, like Cadillacs, Lincolns, Mercedes, BMW's, Jags etc which are more plentiful and extrapolate a profit/loss ratio on the numbers verses the names, their argument falls short quickly. Faulty deductive logic when we're told that it's ANYTHING other than the bottom line on the P/L sheet that determines rates for everyone. The petroleum industry uses that logic.....petroleum was unleaded originally, we paid more for lead to be added then paid even more when the EPA declared leaded gas to be hazardous because the petroleum industry had to remove the lead. A classic case of not being familiar with industrial history.
Want to have fun, try arguing the logic of presidential voting with these same people then ask them to explain the difference between the popular verses electoral college votes....and what actually counts. Their votes counts......so do hanging chads!

[BANDIT 1]

I can't remember driving under 100 mph!