Factory 5 buying SAI

[Traveller]

The truth is, Ford dropped the GT40 name because one of those nasty "Fake" manufactures acquired the rights to the GT40 moniker.

[TAZ]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Would a new Model "T" be a real model "T " if made by Ford. You bet. Not an original. But a REAL genuine model "T" from Ford if made to the same specs as the original. The only thing separating them from the original is time. Would it be desirable as the original to collectors. Obviously not. But then again you never know.

To some REAL must mean original. Thats fine.

Is the new GT 40 Ford a REAL GT 40? You bet. Are the new Indian Motorcycles REAL Indians. You bet. Original? No. Genuine/REAL. Yes.

With facts this clear I can see clearly even with "myopia".

First which "specs" would you like to refer to. You can find yourself in a big argument over saying that the "genuine Cobra" is built to the same "specs" as the originals.

I would call a new Indian Motorcycle a Real Indian. I would not call a '99 Indian Chief a '53 Indian Chief or a genuine Indian Chief, nor does Indian Motorcycle. They are not Replica's but new bikes (with bike design changes) with an old names (Chief, Scout, Warrior.)

The New GT40 is not the Old GT40, it's not a "genuine GT40". It still is a Ford '0X GT40 if they ever produce it though. It's based off the old GT40 platform while incorporating todays techknowledge.

The problem I have is the "genuine Cobra" is said not to be a Replica, not a new version along the same lines but the genuine article, because CS says so. Thus throw me a lot more money than everybody else, and on top of everything I'm gonna try and sue your butt. Even though one could argue that CS had no more to due with the making of the Cobra than Shoehorning a big Engine in an existing British Roadster. We all know he did much more than that, but in the begining that's pretty much what it was. The "Specs" changed over the years by improving suspension, brakes, cooling, ...

An Original is worth a hell of a lot, a "genuine Cobra" is not worth what CS sells them for because when it comes down to it it's a production Replica. That's half the reason Shelby has a hard time selling them. I due have a problem with the superiority complex that some of those who own one tend to have.

I hang with people that have ERA's, EM's, SPFs, Kirkham's (one of the nicest in my opinion) and even one who's partially original (Original had been an accident, the Frame and some other parts were salvaged) Classic Roadster and a few FFRs. We all have one thing in comon, we love Cobra's (and Cobra Replica's) I have not heard one of us insult a particular brand like I see people insulting FFR's on various Forums.

We do not have a snobbish attitude, we do not expect that the value of our cars to be as great as some other Replica's. But most of us put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into our cars, and have quality vehicles. Yes, we are proud of what we've built, but no we don't feel a need to prove how "Shelby" we are.

TAZ

[Mr.Fixit]

Yes, I am quite aware of FFR's product. It does have a new chassis and body, but not one single component in that car is original.
For some people, it is not a cobra unless it has a: ladder frame, 427so, toploader, jag IRS, halibrand knock offs, alloy body, Smith's gauges, I could keep going.
FFR has a new glass body and a bare chassis to which you bolt in the whole suspension, engine, tranny, rearend, etc which you removed from a late model mustang. Besides, isn't a mustang a unibody? so when it's body has been removed, there really isn't a chassis left, just suspension and drivetrain pieces? So it is a mustang rebody kit, if you take it as the sum of it's components.

[MotoCobra]

Mr. Fixit,

A re-bodied Mustang? Have you compared the Chassis design on some of these kits v. Shelby? Rebodied Mustang...Hmmmmm, rebodied Ace w/ a V8?

For a guy who's worked on 'em your comment's a little outta character

I'm not surprised. I see this in the Aero industry. People who usually know their stuff get thrown off by opinion or some false sense of loyalty. Heck, I do it...the F-18 IS better than the F-16!

As for looking at them closely: I'd enjoy a "visual" comparison of a well prepped "Tri-states" body on an FFR chassis performed by some of the "Pro's" 'round here. I'm pretty sure the folks at FFR put most of those "Differences" in there for a very legitimate (or do I mean litigious...Hmmmmm) reason.

I mean after all, Carroll's got more court time on him than most lawyers I know. Another reason I don't do new CSX's...that just leaves a bad taste. Some of us remember when he "Sold Out to Ford" and moved to South Africa(?) and then came back and acted like nothing had happened. Heck, I think he started by suing A.C., didn't he?

More to the point: Didn't Bondurant race the Original cars? I wonder what he thinks about the various chassis designs and what brand outperforms the others nowadays? Why don't one of you guys go up against Mrs. Borden and compare results?

Real1 nailed it: to each his own. Oh, and by the way, I think a certain X-Motohead will end up with an FFR Spec'r and drive the living $#!T outta it. Infact, I'll bet his CSX starts complaining about lack of attention.

Hey Real1: An X-Moto invitational? 2 heats on pavement/cars and 2 Motos (I can get a few KX's together!) each day for 2 days and we combine results on an adjusted total time format...?

Just my usual rambling...My dog has a pedigree, you should see her retrieve!

Manny

[TAZ]

Originally posted by Mr.Fixit


An official pedigree from Shelby may make the cobra a "cobra"
But lets not forget the vast number of differences that separate an original-style cobra (SAI or Kirkham) from a rebody kit for a late model mustang. The only similarity is that of body shape, which is pretty different if you compare them closely.

Just FYI, here's a picture of the FFR MKI frame (some modifications have been made since I bought mine, they're now the MKII frames)



I've seen the "genuine Cobra" up close and about the only noticable difference in the Frame Design is that FFR uses 3/4" Sq Tube for the space frame while SAI uses 3/4" Round Tube for the space frame.

TAZ

[FFR428]

Just think, All you CSX guys will have a REAL FFR!

[jayhawk261]

Mr. Fixit, I am new to the forum and I'm not one to stir the pot but...

What you're saying is a REAL stretch. If the FFR body weren't even close, then Shelby wouldn't have sued them for "Trade Dress" infringement. Also, just because a large number of the parts can come from a single car, it is not necesarily a "re-body" A "re-body" as I believe it is generally accepeted would be putting a fiberglass ferrari body on a fiero or a corvette. The interior stays the same, the wheelbase stays the same, everything stays the same but the look of the car.

If one uses a single donor car to build their FFR, they are changing more than just the look. They are changing body, chassis, wheelbase, vehicle stance, handling characteristics and so on. Most of these changes are in the set up of the chassis.

Just because a mustang is unibody, does not mean it doesn't have a frame. It has a sub-frame in front and a subframe in the rear. the fenders, quarter panels, and all sheet metal can be removed and replaced. the subframe components can be replaced as well.

Just because you don't like the FFR kits, you can't make them into something they are not just to make your argument.

Hopefully I haven't made an enemy here!

[Mr.Fixit]

I am not bashing any brands, not even FFR. Have I said anything to indicate that "FFR's suck" ?

The frame looks very similar and is in overall design. But the collection of parts they use: 302, T-5, 8.8" rear, their brakes, front suspension, bolt-on wheels, etc; is pure late model mustang.

Whereas a SAI or Kirkham is all original in design.

Which is better, I didn't say. Depends on what you want to do with it. I like many kit-car cobras, home built and factory assembled. I really like SPF cars, they are a joy to work on. Not original in any way other than external appearance.

But lets not discount the difference between a replicas that replicates every aspect of the original as closely as possible, to a similar kit-car that replicates the look, and fills in the details with parts that function just fine but are not original at all (late model mustang parts).

[Johan]

Originally posted by REAL 1




1. There are the originals. 2. Then there are the new Shelby Cobras (Continuation Cobras). 3. Then there are replicas of Cobras that aren't Cobras. Those are the facts. I didn't make them up. Its just what it is.




Owning a REAL (produced) Continuation Cobra and lovin it!



P.S. Respect is a two way street.

Evan, you forgot the real genuine AC Cobras again.

[Gordon Claunch]

Uhhhh help mister wizard, make it stop!!!!

[meat]

Originally posted by Mr.Fixit


I am not bashing any brands, not even FFR. Have I said anything to indicate that "FFR's suck" ?

The frame looks very similar and is in overall design. But the collection of parts they use: 302, T-5, 8.8" rear, their brakes, front suspension, bolt-on wheels, etc; is pure late model mustang.

Whereas a SAI or Kirkham is all original in design.

Which is better, I didn't say. Depends on what you want to do with it. I like many kit-car cobras, home built and factory assembled. I really like SPF cars, they are a joy to work on. Not original in any way other than external appearance.

But lets not discount the difference between a replicas that replicates every aspect of the original as closely as possible, to a similar kit-car that replicates the look, and fills in the details with parts that function just fine but are not original at all (late model mustang parts).

The SAI and the Kirkham use replicated parts, not original parts. The FFR is an original idea, not a replicated idea. The SAI car is a copy of the Hi Tech car, which is a copy of a 60s era Shelby car. The Kirkham is the least correct Cobra, in that it's perfect - something the original car never was.

Your pal,
Meat.

[427sharpe]

This has been going so well, and refusing to flush so let's keep it going!
There is no such thing as an AC Cobra.....just like there is no such thing as a Pinninfarina 365GTB4. Ol' Shel his own self says that
AC was a component supplier, no more, no less. A Cobra can only be a Cobra when SHELBY is involved......so Evan is right 'cause I said so!

[REAL 1]

Taz: I love to debate the specifications differences with you on the oringials versus the continuation cars. They are 95% to 99% exact to original specs. Some minor improvements for safety in materials. In fact the owners manual to be used with the CSX is the reprint for the original's owner manuel. Why? Because they are identical.

Every part of the Shelby is made for that car and designed to the original's specifications. Parts can be exchanged with an original. Can't do that with a FFR. Can you?

Go ahead. Which specs of the continuation Cobra are different from the original. Enlighten me.

Why wouldn't you call a new Indian Chief a "genuine Indian Chief" You must have something against reality. Its not an original Indian Chief but how on earth could it not be a REAL Indian Chief???? You gotta explain this. . Whats the problem with ackknowledging the fact that the guy who always wanted an Indian Chief and can't afford the original vintage bike or can't find one and now has the money to pony up the $26K for the new Chief has a new genuine Indian Chief made and sold by Indian. I have no problem with it. He isn't trying to pass it off as an original.

The new GT 40 is a Genuine Ford GT. The successor to the original GT 40. Is it original. No. Is it a genuine Ford GT. How can it not be????

Are you suggesting I don't love Cobras and Cobra replicas? Why else would I hang out here on this club and deal with what I put up with?

I don't insult nor do I intend to insult FFRs. In fact as stated before I like them. Their new MKI chasis is really nice. My problem is that everyone thinks I'm elitest and CSX owners are elitest because we defend what our cars are. Genuine Cobras. Not original but continuation Cobras. No one is trying to pass the Continuation Cobras off as originals because they ain't.

FFR guys are sensative about the perception that there cars are at the bottom of the pecking order. You dispute that and don't like that perception. In fact if I came up to a FFR owner and said your car was a piece of $hit because its a FFR they probably wouldn't like it. In fact I would and never have said that about FFRs. Fact is I don't think that at all.

Well, what makes you think knocking a CSX as a "fake snake" is not just as insulting to a CSX owner and an intentional effort to degrade what someone else has? Ever look at from that angle? CSX owners have been called names and ridiculed as suckers, pigeons etc.. Why becasue were told we overpaid for fakey doos. I don't get upset with these knocks. I'll just keep pointing to the facts. That doesn't make me an elitest. That causes me to be accused of being an elitest by those that wish to trash the truth and denigrate the facts for their own motives. I'll just keep being an elitest everytime someone smears my CSX.

Mutual respect is the answer.

[meat]

Originally posted by REAL 1


"...Well, what makes you think knocking a CSX as a "fake snake" is not just as insulting to a CSX owner? CSX owners have been called names and ridiculed as suckers, pigeons etc.. Why becasue were told we overpaid for fakey doos. I don't get upset with these knocks. I'll just keep pointing to the facts. That doesn't make me an elitest. That causes me to be accused of being an elitest by those that wish to trash the truth and denigrate the facts for their own motives. I'll just keep being an elitest everytime someone smears my CSX.

Mutual respect is the answer.

A CSX is a fake snake. It's no better or worse than an FFR. It's just a replica.

Your pal,
Meat.

[REAL 1]

Meat: Fact is your wrong.

Your pal.

REAL 1.

[Tom T.]

HOLY CRAP!

[meat]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Meat: Fact is your wrong.

Your pal.

REAL 1.

No I'm not.

If your car wasn't built by AC Cars, wasn't shipped over on a boat, didn't have a brand new 1960's Ford motor installed in it, and wasn't registered back in the 60s, then you have a replica of a car that was built by AC Cars, was shipped over to the U.S. on a boat, had a brand new Ford motor installed in it in the 60s, and was registered back in the 60s.

Your car is a replica. It's just as good as a Lone Star.

Your pal,
Meat.

[PSB]

This is a REAL long thread! (had to get in on using "REAL" at least once, as that seems to be important in this thread )

Pete

[REAL 1]

Meat: Ok. Your right. its a replica of the original Cobra and its at least as good as a Lone Star. No argument. Happy now.

[meat]

Originally posted by REAL 1


Meat: Ok. Your right. its a replica of the original Cobra. No argument. Happy now.

Not really. Your car isn't a replica of the original Cobra. But don't despair, it's easily as good a replica as an L.A. Exotics.

Your pal,
Meat.