Octane Booster

[captain]

Aumoore,
There are differences in all Cobras and the price reflects what you get. Superformance does NOT use a ladder construction like the original Cobras. It is a modern, highly contoured box beam design, expensive to build. A ladder is the least expensive. I am truly happy for all Cobra owners who have the opportunity to own and enjoy this magnificent car. I also understand the need to defend what one owns if it attacked.
Nantucket is currently shopping for a cobra and has asked for opinions. I offer mine. He can throw it out after considering it. Superformance gets $20,000 more for their product. There is a good reason for it. FF5 is selling price. Satisfactory for what they give their customer but do not think they are comparable products just as a Miata doesn't compare to the Porsche. A good paint job doesn't make a good or safe Cobra.
Happy and safe driving in your Cobra.

[Bart Carter]

Originally posted by captain
Bart,
I think you are letting your emotions run away with your common sense. The FF5 chassis doesn't compare to the Superformance. If the exceptional builder throws away the FF5 chassis then all he has left is the donor car and the bill of sale. Just ask Outlaw [a FF5 dealer] how he modified his FF5 to make it safer and better. Also his asking price of $60,000.

I'm sorry, how did you read emotions into my post?

You are right, the FFR chassis doesn't compare to the Superformance. If you notice, FFR has had a spec racer platform for some time now. If you want to track, you can use this platform. But the benefit is that many of the developements in the spec racer chassis have carried over the the street MK II chassis, making it far better than original. For example look at the center section transmission tunnel that stiffens up the frame even more. The chassis is rigid enough that the body doesn't need to be a structural part. And for older FFR owners, they can upgrade their cars. Although for most, they wouldn't consider it worthwhile because their cars perform well as-is.

The Superformace is a ladder frame design. It doesn't matter that it is not like the original Cobras. It doesn't matter how expensive it is to build. It doesn't matter what fancy words are used to describe it. It is still a ladder frame.

Either chassis is 100% fine for 99% of everyone's driving. I can't believe you would say that the "exceptional builder" would throw away the FFR chassis. It is just not true and there is no way you can factually defend it. Every builder, the more cars he builds, does some modifications that enhance his product. That is why people tend to choose his product over others.

I did a search for "Outlaw" to try to see what you were talking about and could not find anything. I am sure he didn't do $30,000 worth of frame modifications. However, let me reference you to Levy Racing, who, among other things, has built over 70 Cobras. Their credentials are well known. If you haven't heard of them, here is their ad from Grassroots Motorsports: (without their permission)



I spent a long time researching first hand different manufacturers before making my choice. FFR was my choice. Mainly because the builder can decide just what he wants. I wanted to do a car my way. Very specific and price was not a consideration.

You need to do some honest research before you slam other vendors with second hand opinions. You don't want to give Superformance enthusiasts a bad name, do you?

[Bart Carter]

Originally posted by captain Superformance does NOT use a ladder construction like the original Cobras. It is a modern, highly contoured box beam design, expensive to build. A ladder is the least expensive.

It is still a ladder frame, no matter how you describe it. That doesn't make it bad. Most replicas are built with ladder type frames.

I also understand the need to defend what one owns if it attacked.... A good paint job doesn't make a good or safe Cobra.

But why do you feel the need to attack? And shouldn't you back up you attacks with some facts? Do you really feel that FFR Cobras are unsafe?

There are differences in all Cobras and the price reflects what you get. Nantucket is currently shopping for a cobra and has asked for opinions. I offer mine. He can throw it out after considering it. Superformance gets $20,000 more for their product. There is a good reason for it. FF5 is selling price. Satisfactory for what they give their customer but do not think they are comparable products just as a Miata doesn't compare to the Porsche.

Finally, with price reflects what you get, we come close to agreeing. But not how you would think.

With the FFR, you are buying a kit. With Superformance, you are buying a roller--it is not price comparable, it is apples to oranges. If you buy a roller from a decent FFR builder, pricing is the same. What you get is the same except that the FFR is customized to your exact desires. If you want to build your dream car youself, the way you want, you buy the kit. It can be donor built or not.

Now, what you have really left out, irregardless of FFR or any other manufacturers, is the real reasons to buy a Superformance:

1. Consistant build quality and design.
2. Known standard components
3. Resale
4. Established dealer outlets
5. Good customer support
6. Finantially solid manufacturer

I'm sure you can add more to this list without bashing other vendors. My buddy is thinking of getting a Cobra. I am actually going to suggest a Superformance to him for the above reasons.

[Great Asp]

Okay, I have posted before about Klotz. I was not a believer, but this stuff works! It will raise the octane level "2.5 points". Thats a full 2.5 points, you pump in 93, and with one oz per gallon, you get 95.5

Now before you all say I am full of beans, go to the website, call them up and talk to them.

My motor is a 418 with 10.5 comp. It will ping on straight 93, and it does not ping no matter what I do to the timing on this stuff. I stick 16 oz in when I fill up, like 14 gallons.

Your motor will be fine on Klotz, not a bad idea to run it even at 10:1 comp.


http://www.klotzlube.com/

http://www.klotzlube.com/Merchant2/m...Category_Code=

Eric

[captain]

Bart,
Let's keep it simple. A ladder is two parrallel beams [round or box]and some cross members. Superformance's 2x4 box beams are constructed to start parrallel, angle in, then out to direct force outward in a front or rear accident. This minimizes the force through the chassis and shock to the occupants.
As far as safety of the FF5, just look at the points of attachment of the roll bar. The inner forward tube is welded to a tab! This should be a structural beam. Diameter of the tube wont matter if it is not securely mounted to a chassis.
Outlaw is in Huntington ,NY. You can ask them how many FF5 they built but they have a heck of a race shop. Ask the owner for suggested improvements to a FF5 kit.
If you want to build a Cobra, G-d Bless. Start with an ERA. Otherwise, accept the fact "you get what you pay for".

[JAM1775]

Captain...I seldom fall into baited posts like yours which knock fellow Cobra replica cars so profoundly.
I tried to e-mail you privately but you do not accept e-mails.
I log on to CC less lately because , as I had recently stated in another thread , discussions seem to deteriorate like this one. For many years this forum was a fun place to exchange , share ideas and learn about our common interest in Cobras...of all types and price ranges. I logged on tonight to promote a local cruise in our area........loved reading your opinions ..which by the way is just that.....your opinion. !!!

I am down at the SPF Snakepit every Saturday. I have many good friends there. I own an FFR. For you to make that statement is absurd. I know the Outlaw FFR . I know the Outlaw shop. You are full of baloney. He modifed the frame NOT because of weakness at all. The FFR tube frame is solid.
I have seen FFR frames lift the front wheels , track straight and drive home with no consequence. Outlaw is a Hot Rod/Street Rod builder who produces high end Hot Rods . He builds
Pro- Street rods from the ground up that cost more than many Cobra replicas...including yours. He built one FFR with high end custom Hot Rod mods for which he thought he could ask 50K . Not 60K. 50K. I have seen that FFR at Oultaw's street rod Shop. He also had his car out and cruised with us from the SPF Snakepit one Saturday. He never knocked FFR to me or anyone he spoke to. Nobody is knocking down the door at Oultaw for his custom modified FFR Cobra despite his 550HP shop built 392 stroker with custom cam grind, plus NOS, custom hand made mandrel bent headers, fully custom brake system from dual masters to the discs, custom fuel rails, polished everything, custom rear end , custom front suspension .......It has been a year since I saw that car so I actually forgot many of the quality hot rod and shop machined parts plus labor work put into that car.....forget it ..perhaps you do not even understand my point.

I would like to meet you so you can show me all the things you so confidently profess as true. BTW I have e-mail.
If you had e-mail I would not post this thread.
It is just that I am rather shocked you live in this NY area and could make such an unconditional statement . SPF makes a fine replica. But your statement makes me wonder who made you Captain.

We are all going to the track next week .
That would be July 19th...Saturday.
We will all be there with our SPF's, Uniques, ERA's, CSX,
Classic Roadsters and a few others.... Like my Emerson.
Why don't you join us ??
I am Jim with the Blue FFR.

[captain]

Jim,
You sound very upset. I am sorry.

[Great Asp]

This is, was, should be, a thread on Octane Booster.

Eric

[Don]

Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003 7:11:44 PM America/New_York
To: sales@klotzlube.com
Subject: Octane Booster
Attachments: There is 1 attachment


To clarify the Octane Booster product:

88 to 88.8 or 88.9.................or

88 to 93.0+

How is the " 10 numbers defined " ?

Which of the above is correct ?

NOTE: Will be interesting to view the response to the question. Did not receive a reply to the same type of inquiry sent to AMSOIL

[Great Asp]

Don,

Many octane booster products increase octane by "points". However they are talking about tenths of a full point (1/10).

For example, one well known octane booster says they can increase octane by "up to 7 points", when they mean 7/10's of a point. 93 octane goes to 93.7 with one bottle in a fill up.

Klotz is not like that. It is 2.5 "FULL POINTS" with 16 oz in 20 gallons. If you put in more per gallon, you will get more octane increase, but not exceeding "10 FULL POINTS"

1 bottle + fill up using 93 octane = 95.5 octane
2 bottles + fill up using 93 octane = 98 octane

But you could not get over 103 octane.

Eric

[JAM1775]

No problem Bill. I once saw videos of an FF5 Cobra replica driven by one of the Smith brothers at Run n Gun...flipped over and slid on it's rollbar....upside down ..at speed.
The driver crawled out , they flipped the FF5 back on it's wheels
duct taped about 25% of it's body and went on to win an event.
That video did not upset me at all. I felt good after that.

I have tried Outlaw, 104 and 108 Octane boost as well as the Pep Boys brand just for fun. I never noticed an increase in performance that I could actually feel. I once tried 6 gallons of Cam 2 110 at the track but I do not think there was any gain there. I heard you can gain if you can can get a few degrees advance out of using the higher octane. I am running pretty high compression and felt timing advance may not be worth it if the product only raises tenths of a point. I would be fearfull to try the toulene mix.....with my skills. I still add the 104 booster once in a while. Better to run 93.1 then 93 right ? Wasn't there research done by on a performance website where octane boosters were actually performance tested ?
Perhaps the boost additives just make us feel good ...kind of like the old Marvel Mystery oil days !

[2savage]

I think that guy 'captain' has been drinking octane booster

[computerworks]

Nothing feels worse than a technically-oriented thread taking a hard turn and becoming an emotion-filled "brand vs. brand" discourse.

Let's keep this thread on track and on-topic.

Captain, if you feel the need to thrash a brand vs. SPF (again and again)...
then, start a new thread. But I strongly suggest you don't.

Also, your anonymous posture detracts from your credibility.

Ron
ClubCobra Moderator

[Nantucket427]

My apologies, I was the one that asked the Question about FFR's, that sent this Thread spinning out of control. Seems like there is alot of pent-up emotion or brand loyalty out there. Maybe we should start another thread about who make the best replica ?

Please lets get back to making our High Compression Cobras run right.

Back to Octane Boosters. What are they? Which ones work from your experience?

[outlawrods]

I am a member of Outlaw Motorsports, Inc in Huntington NY. We do not throw away the ffr frame we do modify the rear to section to incorparate our custom suspention. In the front we do some modifying but the origanal frame from ffr is kept intact we like the 4" tube design. And we do sell some cars at 60,000.00 but there are alot of custom parts in the we do have cars with out all the mod for far less. if you have any questions call Outlaw at 631-547-7006.

[David Borden]

Expensive, high octane fuel DOES NOT make additional power. It is simply necessary when you have higher compression

Not true... a friend of mine just dynoed a spec miata with a STOCK miata motor on the chassis dyno. First they dynoed with 91 octane pump gas, and then drained the tank and ran race gas avaiable at the track.

The motor made 3 rwhp more, no other changes but the gas!

David

[Roscoe]

Dave,

I can run my Cobra on a Dyno three times and I will have three different readings. In this case it appears the gas made no difference at all!

Roscoe

[David Borden]

Roscoe, Just sharing some info here. He is not the only guy who has had these results.

These guys are not street car guys. They are national caliber calss winning drivers and car builders. I respect thier opinion and testing.

David

[David Borden]

I think you are letting your emotions run away with your common sense. The FF5 chassis doesn't compare to the Superformance.

Mr Captain, you sure have an opinion. Lets here some facts to see if you have any DATA to back up that opinion.

Lets see some pics of your superformance frame, and then some pics of the FFR chassis. Point out the strengths and weaknesses of each with engineering facts to back it up.

It would be great to get your point by point on why the superformance frame is better. Not really interested in your opinion cause, well you know, their like ###%%%'s. Everyone’s got one.

The roll bar mount you mention later in your "opinion fest" is not a tab. Its welded to a 1/8 in steel plate welded in close proximity to the frame and its gusseted. It will easily hold the weight of the car.

Im a real fan of SPF's. Some of my good friends own them, and they are beautiful well engineered cars! ... unless someone can prove otherwise, they don’t have anything over the FFR as far as frame structure, or pretty much anything else goes.

Sooo... lets hear your facts Jack... errr I mean captain. BTW, what are you a captain of?

David

[Mr.Fixit]

A chassis dyno is not consistent enough to make statements about an additional 3 hp and what caused it. Race gas does not have a noticably higher "specific energy" than pump gas. If your pump gas is oxygenated or contains ethanol, perhaps a fraction of a percent difference. Or if your fuel is not quite good enough and your EFI's CPU starts retarding the spark timing to prevent detonation, than yes.