What happens if you put a Z06 and the best handling big block Cobra in a track?

[Hal Copple]

my son Chris, now a Boxster drive, had an afternoon of in-car instruction by Roland Linder, two time winner at Le Mans for Porsche, Roland drove again this year. Chris says his car control in our SPF at the limit was simply amazing. I have been instructed by Mac DeMere, chief test driver a the Michelien test track here in SC, my SPF now running road race Hoosier Slicks, and the full race Olthoff suspension, and his handling of my car, with me hanging on for dear life, is simply amazing. He told me my car, set up that way that day, was pulling about 1.25 G's, and he ought to know. All i can say is riding with a winning Pro driver is a awe-inspiring experience. My guess is that these guys could easily take any Z-06, in my car. To me, these pros kept my car beyond the edge at all times on the circuit.

I once watched Chris run down a C5 (not an '06) at VIR, harrying him for several laps, then blow by him on the straight. I can't say what experience or enthusiasm the C5 driver had.

Me, on the other hand, I get passed by the women out on the track.

[Kputz]

The question is misleading, of course. Better framed it should read "Given ample time to sort out the car and become familiar with it, in which car could Boris Said or Ron Fellows turn consistently better laps at ____________ (fill in the blank for race course). The answer would be the Vette, and the difference would be considerable, at the vast majority of road courses in the country.
I know how it hurts those who think the Cobra is the end all and be all of cars, but dollar for dollar the new Corvette is truly a world class car, right up there with the dancing horses, and for half the price.

[valpodoc]

Let's not forget the recent Car And Driver article in which a eight year old in a shifter cart beat a pro in a Z06. Power to weight is more important than fancy shocks, cup holders and heads up isplay. Cobra wins again....
Roland

[BT SNAKE]

Hey Hal,
Are you talking about this guy, I was on the track with him and Bondurant at the same time...they go fast....really fast...

Hersh

[Kputz]

Shifter karts are a lesson in physics to be sure Rollie, and not many cars can match 'em. Ten laps at RA or VIR is quite another matter however.

[valpodoc]

Sure...just a point. However, a Z06 goes for 55K plus. A purpose built cobra with an all alluminum 302, big breaks etc could be built for less and out perform the Z06 on just about any track (except the freeway). The car would be lighter, have more power and don't forget the lighter the car the better it breaks.
Cobra wins (the Z06 is still a great car.... and how does it get 26 mpg on the highway?)

Roland

[McCobra]

I didn't realize Roland Linder got around so much.
He helped teach a drivers school at a track here in Denver earlier this year. Heck of a nice guy and yes, he can really drive!

[aumoore]

At the DSCC gainesville track days we had a Zo6 run against us and he out ran all cobras but this guy was a SCCA champion with lots of seat time in his car. At one of the later events one DSCC member had good tires(victoracers) and the Zo6 was running similar tires and they both ran about the same times. The Cobra driver was a novice and said the car had more in it than he was able to get out of it.

I say given similar tires the a Cobra with 350 plus HP will out perform the Zo6. It is just simple physics. Heck In autocross a stock Miata will whip most Cobras and Vetts.

I want to get some good tires on my cobra so I can run with the big boys but I am afraid that it will expose the stock oil pan as inadaquate.

[Hal Copple]

well, what do you know, ole Roland Linder again! Actually, he and Chris have maintained a frinedship since then. Forza (the ferrari mag) had a nice writeup on Roland's Ferrari F40 LM not long ago. Runs about 750 hp. Real race drivers are in a class by themselves.

It is my opinion, that sophisticated supensions, like on an '06, are really great for the variable road surfaces out in the real world, but on a smooth race track, are less important. As long as a suspension lets the tire tread stay maximally in contact with the track surface, then in my thoughts, such an exotic suspension is not really necessary.

Given equal tires, and equal drivers, i don't really know what car would be fastest on a smooth track, unless the straights were really really long, where the higher top speed of the '06 could come into play.

I personally think modern vettes are world class sports cars, and an incredible car for the money. I am not so blinded by a Cobra's legend, or my own car, to think a good Replica could take any '06 on a road course. But having ridden and watched pros drive my car with slicks and my special suspension, ai realize my car's abilities are far beyond my own skills. I remember reading Sports Car Graphic back in the '60's, and i still recall the comments that the Cobra's were quicker than the Vettes mostly because they were so much lighter. Perhaps that advantage still holds.

But i would have no problem with '06's being faster on a track, perhaps they are.

[klayfish]

Rob,
GET OVER IT, my friend!!! You sold your C5 for a bite at the forbidden apple. You cannot compare these two cars. Sure, on paper, you can compare numbers, but the cars are not even vaguely close in driving experience. I don't have extensive experience with the C5, but I have driven them and watched them race (both autox and open track). If you keep expecting that big block Cobra to be anything like your 'Vette, you're really going to hate the Cobra and be very disappointed. As has been said, the 'Vette is easy to drive up to 97% of its' limits. The Cobra takes tremendous skill to drive above 80% of its' limits. With that motor your sticking in there (which is really sharp), it just will not handle like the 'Vette in any way, shape or form. Once your tires hook up, you should be faster in a straight line. But always remember the 'Vette is plush compared to the Cobra. The Cobra is twitchy, unforgiving and a brute, but more fun than you can know.

Many times in my open track runs I have found myself behind a C5 'Vette. I do pretty well to keep on their tail. I can get a fairly decent view of the driver and a perfect view of the car. I rarely see the driver fighting the wheel or see the car twitch too much. Meanwhile, I'm working hard to keep the Cobra pointed in the right direction. I'll be the first to admit that part of that is driver skill (I'm good, but still have a ton to learn), and part of it is suspension set up (mine still needs work). But it's just a totally different car.

The other thing to keep in mind is that unless you ever put that thing on the race track, you may never really push hard enough to really get that last 20% of handling out of the Cobra, so it shouldn't be a problem for you. The Cobra should handle fine for speeds you encounter on the street, so long as you respect the car. You NEED to come autox'ing, since you are so interested in handling. I'll show you what the Cobra can and can't do (not that I'm the best expert in the world, but I can try).

Steve

[Turk]

I sell ZO6's and I think they are probably the best value in a performance automobile out there. They are very capable and competent cars.

I have access to one when we have some in inventory. They are amazing. However the feeling I get from driving a Cobra is the experience I am most impressed with.

I drove a ZO6 to Las Vegas few months back. Speeds attained can't be disclosed here to protect the guilty.

7:15 minutes later I was sitting there and reading the trip computer. It indicated 25.8 miles per gallon. I was stunned!

During the last GM Convention in Las Vegas, I got it from a very reliable source that the '05 ZO6 will have some amazing features.
Possibility of 500-600- and 700HP versions of C6 were discusssed in small huddles.

It will be interesting to see if they really did that.

TURK

[Cracker]

I love my COBRA through & through but having driven a ZO6 last year I would have to give the nod to the Vette. However, if we are talking as described earlier a Cobra set-up properly with professional drivers I would change my mind. The problem is that very few Cobra's are prepared to equal the Vette's performance out of the box.

Two areas stand out from the Vette drive: 1) the ease at which it handles, confidence inspiring (I almost thought I was a good driver for a minute), 2) brakes - very good brakes!

Long live our Cobra dream however of being the dominant car! At least in my case I think I can intimidate most vett's with my BS - Big Scoop!

[coyled]

I have been on 3 different tracks in Phoenix with a variety of cars and zo6's. I seem to pass most cars, 911's, vipers, other cobra's, but a few zo6's do get by me. Transitions from turn to turn and there predictability and forgivness are amazing. The zo6's have dot or slick tires, and better brake pads usually. Just because a cobra is lighter does not mean it will handle better. Yes, power to weight in a straight line it will out accelerate most zo6's until aero comes into play. But the short wheel base and narrow track make it twitchy and unforgiving. The best cobra driver I have run with is Nelson Garrison. He ran an asc car for a year and his 500hp ffr spec race cobra for a few years. At firebird east wich is a 1.4 mile technical road course, Nelson is very fast there in the cobra, several seconds faster than me but still a second slower than a zo6 driven by a very good driver with slicks and a brake pad change. Go to www.speedstylesound.com, go to the gallery and there are several cool video's of a zo6 at road america with an experienced driver. The zo6 has tire, brake and header changes. The best timed run is a 2:32:00. Nelson and I ran road america a few weeks ago in our cobra's. Nelsons best time was a 2:33:40. My best time was a 2:30:85 on sunday. I will try and post the in car video. It is much scarier and not as smoth as the zo6 video. I was aided at that track by a hp advantage. There were a 100 cars in a timed event on saturday. Only 5 cars were under 2:35:00. Only 2 were under 2:31:00 besides me and they were both full tilt track only cars. Guys, this is a sampleing of 100 cars at a track where hp comes into play and the zo6 is still right there. At a track like road america, a high hp cobra with a good driver like Boris Said would be faster than he would be in a zo6. On a shorter technical course, the zo6 would be faster. The zo6 is way easier to drive than the cobra. Thats why when all of us amatures drive our cobras on the track and other amatures drive there zo6's, the zo6's are for the most part faster. The truth hurts. Scott

[JRoss]

Hey all,

a little while back I got to play with a z06 at Texas Motor Speedway. The z06 was in stock trim and tires. I have a 428cj that recently dynoed at 410 tq at the rear tires. I was also running hoosier slicks. On this particular day with this particular car I was faster. So I have at least 1 z06 story. I claim nothing else except I had a lot of fun.

Here are a couple of shots.



and a couple of laps later



Sorry I still cant figue out how to make an image show up.

John

[Kputz]

Keep this in mind Scott. A few years back a Midwestern Council Vette posted a 2:259 at R/A running in ASR, and a GT1 Camaro posted a 2:21. I ran a Mustang in AS in SCCA and times of 2:30's were not all that uncommon.

[COBRA427]

I never would have thought I would hear positive comments about a Corvette coming from all you Ford guys. It's refreshing that some of you can tip your hat to the Z06.For the money, you can't beat the performance. Don't get me wrong, I love Cobras, their timeless, classic looks, the roar of its powerful motor. Unfotunately, of all the autox's I've attended, I've never seen a Cobra keep up that well with the C4 and C5 vettes.
Hopefully with my LS6 and Corvette susp., I'll be able to change that. Like Turk said, you build them for your enjoyment, that's the bottom line.
Ed

[coyled]

kputz, no doubt that lots of guys can run in the 2:30's at road america. There are guys in vett's and cobra's in the 2:20's also. My point was, an average driver(me) in a high hp cobra that has open tracked a little bit versus a zo6 with a really good driver at a high speed track like road america(14 corners avg speed 96mph), and the zo6 is right there near the 2:30 mark. But, the z06 does not even come close to the adrenalen rush of a ride in a cobra. scott

[rdorman]

"I never would have thought I would hear positive comments about a Corvette coming from all you Ford guys."

I think most of us are car guys. There is no denying the potent combination that a Z06 offers. A neighbor of mine, who is also NASA and SCCA driving instructor and damn fast, gave me a ride on the track in his modified Z06. Lots of suspension and brake work, super sticky 13" tires and about 500HP. The thing is a rocket. Very seldom do you feel a car run that hard, unless of course I am driving my car!

Lots of great cars out there from lots of different manufacturers.

By the way, last autocross I was at I was right in there with all the C4, C5 and Z06 vettes. Faster than many. Any my car is not set up for autocross. Plus I am not the fastest Cobra there by a long shot. One of the guys at the Fling bested my time by nearly four seconds! And I was one of the fast guys.

Rick

[Don]

In the 2003 Cannonball One Lap of America:

1st Corvette Z07 ( Modified Z06 )
2nd Corvette Z06
3rd Viper
4th RUF RGT
5th Porsche 996 Twin Turbo

Some decent competition for the Corvette to finish 1st and 2nd

One approach would be to have Dennis Olthoff drive both his Superformance and a Z06, equally prepared, on the same track/day with the same conditions......then, his valued opinion as to the handling etc and sharing the actual lap times that he ( Dennis ) was able to obtain with both the Z06 and the Cobra. Sure would be interesting....

That said, owning both, there is no way for pleasure drving that the Z06 can match the Cobra for the " WOW " factor, even if the Cobra does not have either a cup holder or CD player

Both are great , but serve a different purpose for the enjoyment of driving.

[valpodoc]

Ok Let's rephrase the question..... A cobra (BB) and a Z06 are waiting at a light. A super model in a thong bikini walks by. Who does she drive off with???

Roland