I think I will buy a shelby now. I bet if anyone here started a business, then it slipped and someone else came along and imitated exactly what you had done and gave you no credit for it, you may not be as forgiving as you think. At any rate, the line between price has now been so far blurred by ads I have seen for completed cars I am perfectly willing to pay the 80K for a real Shelby. 70K for a completed "cobra" with fiberglass body, 351W and tremec 5 speed? When for 10K more I can get an aluminum bodied SAI. So the completed car will cost 100K, so what? Many claim to spend more than this and they dump chevy engines and TH400 trannys in them, then put some disgusting brandywine paint job on it, and seats with headrests on them. One I saw had a six speed in it. One of you mentioned in criticism that if replica companies gave SAI 500/car SAI would drop the suit faster than your dog drops his breakfst. So what? Then why not give him the 500/car? Most kits for a rolling chassis are in the 20-40K range, is 500 dollars extra going to run them out of town? Anyway, reading this board has helped me decide, thanks to everyone. ERA's, Uniques, EM, SPF etc. are great, but I will pay more and get a shelby, and I'll call a dealer to get it, not SAI in Las Vegas.

Sorry, gentlemen, but I'm with Flyin-Freddie on this one. Shelby is truly a living legend of our time, and I'm extremely grateful for what he's done for car enthusiasts. However I see a few too many inconsistancies in what he's done and said.

As to the arguement about Venture calling the shots these days, perhaps this is true. However, if this is the case, and Shelby is an unwilling accomplice to these suits, don't you think he would be shooting his mouth off about it? He's not known as a bashful man.

Again, I don't mean to offend anyone out there, just my opinion.

Some additional musings about Shelby. Shelby American, not Ford, won the International Championship. Ford subsequently used the name on some pretty pathetic cars unashamedly for pure marketing. Carroll Shelby on the original arrangements for the Cobra: "Primarily my letter was addressed to Charles Hurlock of AC... In this letter I didn't mention Ford specificially, or in any way, because what I had in mind was a Chevy engine, maybe, or a Buick aluminum engine, or something from Oldsmobile." Source: "The Cobra Story" (book) by Carroll Shelby and Lyle Kenyon, 1965. GM turned down Shelby, the marketing people thought that the project would compete too directly against the Corvette. Shelby must be saddened about the application of the legendary name COBRA on cars ranging from rolling total losses to anemic Fords. He really appears to be trying to protect the legacy of Shelby American. However, even the automotive press commented on the sickening Mustang II being badged "COBRA" in the emission laden 70s. I submit that overall the replicar market dignifies the legend, and that the real damage was done by Ford. Related, Harley Davidson sued the Japanese mfgs for building V twins, on the basis of the sound of a Harley was an infringement, which is obviously reaching and as I recollect lost. Suits against replicar mfgs threaten their financial health, and they may have to stop badging them or calling them Cobras, and may pay damages for using the name in a detrimental way....but doubtful will cause the shape to be off limits. One of the lesser reasons that I chose ERA was that they have been loyal to the legacy. If they ever got in a legal scrap with Ford or Shelby, where are the damages? They have done nothing but publish the legend for free. The legend has passed to a new generation that wave, scream and thumbs up when they see and hear the most radical, cool car (to them) on the planet drive by. God bless Carroll Shelby. Think of the void in our lives had he retired to be another Purdue type chicken farmer. Ford owes us each a bottle of Scotch as a token.

Hey Hippy Guy,
Lighten up, There is a lot of people on this board that have that Disgusting brandywine paint job or headrests or six speeds. I have the six speed. I don't own a CSX cobra. I have a fiberglass body that looks like a cobra or an AC. There are no badges on my car that signify SAI or any other car company.
I respect your choice in buying a Shelby CSX4000 replica. It is a good choice. I think your pricing research needs a little work though. I built my roadster 12 yrs ago for about 15K. There are other choices besides trying to build an exact reproduction of the original. Thats the beauty of this body style. You can do it your way.
If all those replica manufacturers gave Shelby that $500 do you suppose that they could have written it off on charity? Or if I bought one would I have gotten the option to write it off. Maybe CS would collect it then give it to the heart fund. That way he could take the deduction. So you see why maybe the replica manufacturers had a few questions before they started charging customers $500 per body kit. Would that money apply to turn keys only or was it for just the body?. I know for a fact that an offer was made to CS but the company did not get an answer . The offer was withdrawn.
Hippy, did you look at the Kirkhams car? I think you might like what you see. Closest thing to perfection I have ever seen. It's true to the style in every way.

Your Friend,
Hershal Byrd:)

PS. I did not dump my Chevy motor in my car..I carefully placed it in with loving hands.:D:3DSMILE:

Just as an FYI here folks, seeing that there are dollar type numbers being thrown around this revived discussion/thread..........The dollar amount requested was $1,000 per kit, whether a partial kit, or a complete kit, it did not matter at that time. All talks of a lesser amount used as a donation towards the heart fund were ignored, or turned down at the time of discussion between all parties involved...................


Yours in Clarifying Fords,


Bill S.

PS: For the record, I would love to own a CSX car (I prefer the 289FIA body style anyway **) ), however, at this time (pre-college for my son), I cannot justify spending that type money...............Only time will tell when I get mine.............

OK! I'll give it my 2 cents
 

I think the kit car manufacturers should have at least tried to negotiate some dollar amount. Look at how many years they paid no royalties at all to Mr. Shelby. Let's face it, he should have received something even before the heart fund. They should have tried to have a turn key fee and a kit fee.
As far as the CSX 4000 cars, it made a great deal of sense to me. I was able to get a car that had a real connection to its creator for a price that was only a bit more than a high dollar kit car. Mine will always be considered a Shelby and it will always be in the registry. The other good news is that I can drive the pants off it which I would not do with a 1965 original.

Hippy,

Maybe you should call Dick Smith and suggest he takes the head rest off of CSX3035. His car's painted "Lip Stick Red" , so maybe an original color is more appropriate.

Some people say CSX3035 is worth a million dollars. How much do you think deleting that headrest and going to Guardsman Blue add?

I have never seen a CSX4000 that was built by the purchaser. They all seem to be completed by dealers. And they're more like $95,000 out the door in glass. 20K extra for aluminum.

Try Kirkham for an aluminum Cobra. I keep hearing they've sold a lot of bodies and frames to some outfit in Nevada.

Stan:eek: :eek: :eek:

It has been interesting reading the “Cobra Creator: Carroll Shelby Speaks Out” thread and I appreciate the way opinions are being stated clearly while the contributors have remained civil with respect to the other guy’s opposing views. Perhaps the circumstance regarding the current litigation has finally been recognized as one we will all have to wait out and let the courts decide. Good for us if we can all go about our business, each keeping our fingers crossed for our individual hoped for outcomes, and continue to talk things over together. Several comments in the tread prompt me to give some additional information that may help in understanding the factual basis in the suit, though I don’t hold out any expectation it will change opinions.

Flyin-Freddie states he doesn’t see how Carroll, having admitted to selling the Cobra name to Ford, can now pursue his claim in interest to the name and trade dress. The current status of the “sale” you are referring to Freddie, was fixed as a result of a Ford- Shelby lawsuit settlement that enables Shelby to continue to have interest in the name and trade dress for all the 1960s era Cobras and replications, not the opposite result you suggest.

This is the string of events leading to that position.

1) The Ford and Shelby litigation established that the Cobra trademark had not been abandoned. This is important when considering the replica makers position that the trademarks are public domain. It is also important to recognize the litigation is recent - 1997. The judge’s Declaratory Judgement Order states: “The court concludes that Ford’s Cobra trademark has not been abandoned through nonuse, and has not become generic with respect to automobiles and automobile parts. Accordingly, this action is dismissed with prejudice, and judgment is entered in favor of Ford.”

2) Ford and Shelby then entered an agreement where by Ford conveyed rights to Shelby for the 1960s Cobra related uses of the rights owned by Ford. The “Settlement Agreement” sets forth the following:

a. The Cobra and Snake design trademarks are valued trademarks of Ford and represent valuable goodwill.
b. Shelby owns the name and trademark Shelby for use in connection with replicas of 1960's automobiles and clothing and related accessory items.
c. Shelby is the worldwide owner of the overall trade dress of certain cars manufactured by him from approximately 1960-1967 known as the 427 Cobra Roadster, 427 Cobra Roadster SC (1965) and Cobra Daytona Coupe, and Cobra 289 .... through the license discussed [below] Shelby has the sole and exclusive right to use the aforesaid name in connection with replications of such automobile as well as the right to replicate and/or to license the replication of the overall trade dress of the aforesaid automobiles through the manufacture of turn key models, kits, and/or miniature models.
d. Concurrent with the execution date of this Agreement .... Ford shall exclusively license Shelby through the License Agreement attached ... to use Ford’s Federally registered marks, Cobra and Snake Design, as part of the trademarks Shelby Cobra, and/or Shelby Cobra and Snake Design for use in connection with the replication (turn key or kit) and/or model miniaturization of the aforesaid 1960s automobiles [above] namely, 427 Shelby Cobra Roadster, 427 Shelby Cobra Roadster SC (1965), Cobra Daytona Coupe and Cobra 289.”

The effect of all of the above is that Carroll does in fact still have control over the trade issues related to replication of the original 1960's Cobras.

Freddie also suggests that Carroll admits to AC’s development of the original shape. This has never been an issue. The actual AC ace shape also has a predcessor. The point that is being missed here is that Carroll’s claim is to the 427 shape, which clearly came out the Shelby American development process and was produced by AC to Shelby specifications. Obviously, the same as to the very significantly different chassis. You need to get the order of the 31 AC cobras correct, which is, they were produced by AC after the Shelby American production was set, not before. The Shelby production is the precedent, the AC production the follow-on.

Finally, Freddie’s suggestion that $500 per car would change the direction of things would probably be correct had it happened at the time Shelby sought some recognition from the replica makers. It wouldn’t hold water today, given the very substantial investment that has gone into Shelby’s re-entry into the production arena. A case of too little too late. He is too heavily invested in the current production arrangements.

Hope this clears up some points, if not, at least it should help clarify our opposing view.

As to Dan Semko’s prediction of who will appear when the smoke clears from the loaded gun - I believe he will be surprised. Carroll’s grin will be quite clearly there. Dan you have been quite adroit in some of you observations, and spot on as to some of them. Don’t be discouraged if you don’t get them all correct. Incidently, I wish you wouldn’t use derogatory descriptions like “minions” when describing others employees. I assume your office staff would be quite offended to have that appellation applied to them. While you might quite understandably be dissatisfied with Shelby American having a new controlling interest, that doesn’t mean those that work for Venture are mindless followers, as the “Minions” label suggest. While, as one working for the company that is being controlled by Venture, I sometimes disagree with the direction things take, I still respect the fact that Venture produces composite parts for virtually every automobile manufacturer in the world, or has the opportunity to do so. That doesn’t suggest mindless workers.

Lastly, I am equally as frustrated as some of you are with respect to trying to find a consistent position as to where Carroll is on different subjects at different times. However, when we look at a magazine article that appeared when Carroll was in a guarded health situation, prior to heart transplant and kidney transplant and prior to the opportunity to re-establish production, it is quite understandable that his views might be somewhat contrary to what they now are. We must read historical articles in the context of the time in which they were written. Which one of us has not had difference views on the same subject as time moves on and different factors come into play?

Thanks for listening - and thanks for the civil dialog.

Yep, Just like the E-Bunny, this topic keeps goin' and goin'. (check the dates)Anyway,what this comes down to is; the judge is going to rule on actions that should have been taken 35+ years ago. The way it works is, you invent?design?copywrite ?patent ,something, then you produce it. If some one comes along and copys your creations you take measures to stop him, the minute you find out. Not 30 years later, no time machines are avaliable.Have your lawyers look up the B.F. Meyers case,1971 , there's your precident.( Bruce once gave CS one of his little cars, so I'm sure they know each other)

Hey Freddie:

As Wayne pointed out Carroll Shelby holds the rights to Cobra name. He therefore has the right to protect it. Carroll Shelby was the father along with Ken Miles of the 427. Not AC. Shelby and Miles designed it with help from Claus Horning at Ford. AC was merely the subcontractor who built the bodies and frames per Shelby spec.

Shelby has a the right to seek to enjoin replica companies that still claim they make "Cobras" The replica companies (none of them) make Cobras. Never did. They have no right to call their cars Cobras, Shelby Cobras or use the badging of a Cobra. Shelby American is the only company that holds those rights and they are certainly within their rights to seek to protect that. I don't think its the "lawyers". Remember, regardless of what ol' Will said about lawyers, everyone hates them until they need one.

STG: Back in the 60s AC (who made the AC 427 for european consumption) sold a bunch of aluminum bodies and steel frames to a little performance shop in California. Sound familar?

The trade dress issue is a little more difficult in my mind. Complicated by time. I think Shelby should have moved quicker but on the other hand Shelby did approach the replica industry years ago. The replica industry in my opinion knew they were copying one of the most recognized body shapes of all time. They certainly can't claim surprise that these issues came up. They saw the storm brewing for years. They should have looked to reach a compromise when first approached. They knew they were inviting possible litigation when they began copying the car and especially when some of them started calling them "Cobras" They should have recognized Shelby's claims years ago and compromised with him. The replica industry is not blame free in this either.

Dan: Based on the above I certainly do not see the Shelby litigation as "frivilous" Some claims may be weaker than the other but not frivilous.

I would personally like to see the litigation settled in some form of compromise. The Shelby and Cobra name and logos are entitled in my view to protection. I would hate to see, however, companies forced to chop up molds. The last thing we need is to chop up all the enthusiasum. If nothing else I believe the replica industry helped to keep the myth and legend of the Cobra alive in public consciencenous. I would like to see a compromise reached that would allow replicas to continue to be made and affordable to people who have a passion for the car under some type of license agreement with SAI.

This is all my .02 Cents.

Speed Waxer:)

Dialog or Diatribe?
 

Wayne,
Nice to see that you've returned after a long hiatus especially since this fellow "Hippy" who has no profile or history, managed to arouse your interest. Since our last discourse and in reviewing our past dialogs, I'm understanding more of your viewpoint and as my last personal correspondence stated, I am not your enemy. I do believe that the legal issues have been distorted and that alot of the hostile reactions have been in response to the lack of substantive responses from you or Deacon on straight forward issues. BTW: "minion" does not mean "mindless".
I believe that Carroll Shelby is quite capable of speaking for himself rather than though delegated spokespersons and I would certainly welcome the opportunity to speak with him, as would several other cobraphiles that feel that he is an automotive icon; I also realize that it is impossible for him to respond , not because he doesn't want to speak with us but
rather to avoid "mindless" attacks by some that have failed to read the entire story and all of the responses prior to posting their response. I don't envy Carroll Shelby's postion nor do I envy yours which is to do what is morally and legally correct in your eyes. I believe that the Enzo Ferrari approach has created more disparity than well being and in the final analysis, destroying your ardent followers may prove to be the final demise of an automotive icon and a well respected marque. Then, no one will be left grinning, but rather grimacing at the automotive alumnus.


DDS/The First Edition

Thank you, Wayne...
 

Thank you, Wayne, for providing the other side of the story, and for correcting where I may have gone astray in my history lessons. After reading your posts, I also back tracked with the Shelby Buyers Guide, and the AC History book...indeed, you are correct, sir, AC did make their 427 bodies based on Shel's design and at his request.

So, where do we stand? It sounds as if indeed all replica/kit/turn-key/pallet manufacturers are in violation of the law by calling their products 'Cobra', is that the short version here? So, what do we do now...? I mean, besides wait for the courts to rule on this mess and the endless appeals, no matter who receives a favorable ruling.

If 'trade dress' is the only questionable issue, then from my viewpoint, anyone can produce a car that resembles a 'Cobra-like' shape, and as long as they don't put on a badge that has the 'Cobra' registered logo on it, nor call it a 'Cobra', nor mention the word 'Cobra' in their advertising and sales literature, they're legal from the standpoint of the law. Okay, what if the purchaser then puts a 'Cobra' logo on it...who's in violation of the law....the manufacturer, or the owner of the pseudo-Cobra?

I need to know, becuase the only logo on my car is a 'Cobra' steering wheel center button, and on the valve covers and aircleaner top. I need to remove them and make other plans.

Maybe I could go into business making 'Cobra-like' logo items. Maybe we could call our cars, 'Cobra-esque', or 'Resembling a Vehicle Known as a Cobra', or 'NOT Cobra'.... Oh, well, perhaps we've gone to far here, huh?

Anyway, Thanks Wayne! I, too, appreciate the forum to exhange our viewpoints without the juvenile name calling and (middle) finger-pointing on some other threads. We have differing opinions of what's right and wrong on this issue, and I'm not thinking we're going to ever resolve them to everyone's satisfaction. I do still respect what Ol' Shel' did, and now I better understand SAI's position on these issues.

...and I now have my history more correct! :3DSMILE:

Oh, and just because we have differing opinions on this issue, doesn't mean I won't buy you a beer should we ever meet! We disagree, that's all...I'm sure we can find something we can agree on, right? :p

Wayne,
Thank you for responding to the post. Several months ago we conversed on this very subject. I posted the idea of copying a copy (Contemporary). Basically, you were not in favor of this idea and suggested that I should let my conscience be my guide. Your response was very thought provoking to say the least. I agree, At the end of the day, we all have to look in the mirror.
I belive the people who initially went into the Cobra knockoff busines probably had less than stellar moral values. Fair enough. Time passed, and Mr Shelby gave this interview. As I see it, he in so many words, gave the green light to anyone thinking of going into the knockoff business. A few took him at his word.
Say he wins the lawsuit and shuts these after interview startups down. At the end of the day, he too, has to look in the mirror.
Respectfully,
Steve R

Most law suits accomplish something.
Let's say this case goes the way Venture wants. Other side appeals, they loose. It is settled once and for all

Now what?

Let's also speculate that every Cobra manufacturer closes their doors and goes away.

Then what?

The victor would be SAI. They certainly must have some hopes and expectations from such an outcome. They are not spending a small fortune just to be vindictive. They want something from such an outcome!

I don''t know their current production numbers, but my guess is they stand to sell a few more cars because theirs would be the only Cobra avilable.

How many more than thier current production would they sell? I don't think their car is a bad car. I just think it is overpriced.

1-Will they sell more cars?
2-Those without a Cobra yet, would you go buy one of theirs?
3-What is likely to be the new prices?

Inquiring minds wants to know.
TURK:mad:

A step further!
 

TURK,
Interesting points taken but let's go a few steps further. What would happen if all of the cobra computer sites were served "cease and desist" orders and were unable to defend their First Amendment Rights monetarily? The international consumer access to available replicas would be severely impeded and replica manufacturers would need to spend significantly more of their minimal profit margins to reach the same consumer base. Now in addition to eliminating the replica resources and decreasing the available market, the next logical step would be to consume readily available suppliers of entire inventories, thus eliminating the availability of replacement resources for renegade builders. The prospect seems dismal, but alas, there is a saving grace...it's called RICO which Uncle Sam maintains a very adamant position. Hypothetical, maybe, but if a major big three manufacturer were entertaining the idea of re-introducing the cobra marque, wouldn't it be rather quaint as well as prosperous to lay the groundwork?

DDS/The First Edition

Something interesting happened last week, a Shelby Cobra was offered at auction on eBay. The car was assembled by a "reputable" Canadian builder. Now if I were purchasing a Shelby my question would logically be, is a Shelby assembled in Canada equal to a Shelby assembled at the factory by Shelby American and does it maintain the same value?

Dan,

Seriously, are you on meds? Can I get some?

TT

Canadian Shelby
 

Dan, How did the Cobra do on Ebay? Since it was a Canadian build which I assume was in a French Province of Canada. Was it painted "Sacre Bleu"?????

Flawed Stories!
 

Tom T.
You deal in facts daily so how about if we have some fun with "discovery"?
#1: Remember when the statement that "every manufacturer was contacted by Shelby" was posted? I believe that Carroll Shelby made the statement: “I asked every kit car company in the world to pay me a licensing fee and NOT ONE of those !@#$ even responded to me.” On what date did he approach his main aluminum body fabricator the Kirkhams and make this statement?
#2: Have ANY of the current website owners recently received a "cease and desist" letter from the Shelby representatives?

BTW: The only thing that I've been smoking lately are the BFG's on my Superformance! Good Medicine for the heart.;)

DDS/The First Edition:D

Shelby speaks
 

CS started with a vision that grew in the hearts of each of us. I think it only fair that he benefit financially or by donation. After all we would all be driving something else without his dream. He shared it with us willingly......shouldn't the replicar companies do the same.....without him they would have nothing and we would have less.........

Bill S................that is one heck of a magazine collection you have there........and I thought I was bad using my pool table to fold laundry...............Are you selling those magazines? I have a friend with a red and white A & C who had a write up done in Kit Car Illustrated and would love to have that copy if you are selling. He just put a 514 in his. Anyway, let me know....Thanks

A familiar race
 

And they're off! It's Mr.Mustang out of the gate with FlyinFreddie along the fence by half a lengh! Now on the out side is STG and BT SNAKE. Making the first turn its flynFreddie by a nose, on the inside rail making a move is Wayne Stoker. It's Evan harris coming up from the inside! Not far behind is Semko! taking the crop hard on the rear is Mr. Mustang! It's now in the stretch and its a race! Stoker, Semko, and on the outside is CSX4027 making an early move! EvanHarris hanging on by a head!
From the rear Bt Snake and STG, on the out side and coming on strong is Mr.Bruce! Out of the pack to third comes Turk! Behind turk taking the whip hard is TomT. They're all bunched up in the front! Who's it gonna be! It's CSX4027 by a nose, second is TomT! Turk is neck and neck with Semko for Third!!!
They're a furlong from the finish and it's unbelievable! Four across neck and neck! Its EvanHarris,CSX4027, Semko. and Wayne Stoker!! And at the wire it's ......... A photo finish!
Stay tuned folks! This could go either way. we will have to wait
for the judgement...huh I mean ruling from the officials.:LOL: :3DSMILE:

I love a good horse race!
Hersh:)