Wayne,

As always, your candor is much appreciated


Dawn,

The magazine collection is for sale as 1 lot only. :D


Herch,

All too damn funny. :LOL:



Steve,

Time to get out of the sun "dude" :D . Are we going to see you on Saturday????

Evan,

Interesting view from a "professional" standpoint, but perhaps just a little biased for some strange reason :p .


To the rest of you I have yet to mention, look at things this way, what ever happens, happens......We will all learn to deal with it in our own ways.............



Yours in Fords,

Bill S.

What if....

We are (somewhat dysfunctional, but heck, who ain't in these modern times?) family...most of these here "roadster" owners I know are pretty danged proud of their particular origins de automobile manufacturoente suprema (hey, I did a Curt Scott! just kidding Curt, get better soon)...SPF, FFR, ERA, Contemporary, SAI stuff, Kirkhams, etc....e.g., I have a big Contemporary sticker on my windshield...so...what if we were to come up with CLUB COBRA hood/trunk and side emblems, get a bunch of them made up, and replace the existing stuff with those, and show our colors, proudly? (Of course, those with the new SAI cars could just stick one under the passenger's seat, or something.) I'm up for it--anybody else?

TT

Evan,

I do seem to recall a certain Mr. Hurlock in the Cobra's history, however I apologize for being unclear and too oblique.

My response to Hippy centered on his apparent disapproval of non-authentic replicas. I have always believed that the kit-car or replica hobby is a sanctuary for non-conformists. I just wanted to point out that a lot of original Cobras were modified throughout their lives.

As far as importing CSX 4000 assembiles --

At least one SAI dealer is making the following statements:

"We're tired of all the half-truths. CSX Series COBRAs vs the wanna-bees

The Shelby CSX Advantage
The only Cobra built today that...is manufactured in the USA by Shelby American"

XKs UNLIMITED Motorsports ad in the October 2001 issue of Kit Car Illustrated, page 52.

If CSX4000s are manufactured in the USA by Shelby American, what would call all that welding, cutting, machining, die casting, forming, panel beating, etc. that's going on overseas? Perhaps "assembled in the USA from imported parts" would be more accurate. After all, today's regulations require automobile maufacturers to list imported content. Wait, if the authorized SAI dealer assembles the car, does that make Shelby American the parts importer?

I just think there's a difference between assembling and manufacturing.

Dan Semko,

It's more than just aluminum bodies. A SAI manager told me face-to-face that the CSX7018 has a Kirkham body and frame.

But, that's just my crazy opinion and more snake oil on the fire.

Stan


%/ %/ %/

Almost what I said!
 

Steve Sunshine,
I sent the owner of the Canadian Shelby a personal note asking his bottom line which I later found out to be $120k."Sacre Bleu"?????
STG, Please do a search on ALL of the Shelby American threads and you'll find that several members throughly dissected the differences in a rather "spirited" debate.
Tom T: I'll bring the pry bar and pliers to remove the emblems, let's see some creative replacement parts!

Anyone want to "Venture" that now that Hippy( who probably works for SAI...Deacon is that you?) has "Strokered" the fire, that Wayne doesn't answer the questions posed??
And certainly defenders of the marque will chant in unison, "well, why should he?" to which the appropriate response will be.....he rekindled the flame, so let him calm the inferno.

DDS/The First Edition

P.S. Wayne, I'm still waiting for that autographed (large) t-shirt from Shelby American!!!:D ....never too proud to respect the icon.

Dan Semko

For the first time I may have to chime in on the side of Tom T.

Really, are you smoking some wacky weed? Medical marijuana is legal in parts of California, but I didn't think it was so in Indiana.

With all the porn sites, offshore based internet gambling sites, sites where you are given enough information to assemble your own bombs at the comfort of your own home,the government has not been able to close down sites they deem dangerous and improper.

Are you telling me, a handfull of lawyers would succeed in making a mockery of Free speech and our constitutional rights?
I DON'T think so!!

I don't know how many other Cobra Sites there are.When I looked last time it was in the hundreds if you count the individuals with their own websites. None are commercial to my knowledge. Serving a "cease and desist" order to that many individuals would tax even the legal staff at Venture.

If they were even to do that just to this one site we have all learned to rely on for information and fun, can you imagine the fallout?

Nope! This time you are a little off. Waaay off!!

Legal or not, give me some of that stuff you obviously got your hands on.

Still friends?

TURK

Wacky Weed??
 

TURK,
You California guys have your center of gravity somewhat displaced with all of those seismic disturbances. It would only take a cease and desist directed at the largest cobra replica and sales site, of the top four, to have a profound effect on the readily available choices. Maybe it's just a rumor, so how about hearing from the owners of the top four sites? Have any of you received a greeting notice? I can only imagine the responses from the folks at CobraNet and the several volunteers that would hold the MagLite as the papers were inserted, so that would probably safely eliminate one of the top four. That would leave Mike, Brent and Curt as potentials......
BTW: I wonder if Wayne Stoker will be permitted to leave his office to attend the Kruse Auction in Auburn during the Labor Day weekend? Gee, he could meet the Semkos (all 3) in force, TURK and several cobraphiles. Now a more important question: Mr. Shelby, do you need any new replacement parts?? :D

DDS/The First Edition

BT Snake:

Great analogy! It was hilarious! That Mr. Mustang sure knows how to "stir the hornets nest".

Dan: Relax. Take a deep breath. I do not think that any of the Cobra Sites are in jeapardy based on their First Amendment rights. Seriously.

STG: No need to apologize. I just thought I would point out the parallelism of the two generations. Yes, the XK ad does not appear to be factually correct. Some Shelby bodies and frames as I understand were made by Kirkham in Poland.

Turk: It would be a sad day if all the other manfacturers were enjoined from making replicas. Yes. Shelby may sell a few more cars but many more would not be able to build their dream. Thats sad especially when such people have such enthusiasum for the car and Shelby. I would like to see a compromise reached as I noted previously.

Thanks.


Speed Waxer.


:)

And Wayne, about that 1997 litigation...the order of the court was the result of stipulated findings of law and fact...stipulated between the parties to the litigation. The stare decisis (precedential) import of that case in the current litigation initiated by SAI/Shelby against FFR and SPF is not necessarily what you would make of it. As you say, we shall see what the final decision obtains, if there ever is a judgment in this matter.

TT

Evan,
How about a slight wager? If I'm wrong, I'll buy you your favorite bottle of bourbon and if I'm right, you can buy a nice fifth of Old Grand Dad! I believe that you're under-estimating Venture and Shelby. Hopefully I'm totally wrong, have to buy you the bottle and check with my Optometrist to clear my vision, but we will see.

DDS/The First Edition

Hershal you can be the first to crack the seal on the Old Grand Dad!:D

Dan:

Your on! If you win I think we will both need that drink.

Speed Waxer.:)

Gee! I win either way! But I prefer George Dickle or Jack Daniels.
Mostly I'm not picky. Grand dad will hit the spot just the same.
I say everyone has to step back and take a long look at the
overall picture. You have to try and see it as if you were Venture or SAI. Question one. What is the real purpose of the suit and what's to be gained from it if won?
Question two.. Will all the other replica companies stop making
replicas ? I don't think that is what they are after. I know they say destroy all molds but I believe this is to provoke a settlement
so that all companies will pay a licensing fee for the rights to reproduce the image. Some variation of this will happen. Common sense says they won't shut everyone down. There are way to many people that loose employment and to many suppliers that get hurt. No Judge in his right mind would not consider the effects of a decision like that. All I know is that I will be one happy camper when all this is water under the bridge. Then I will have that drink with all you guys.

Your Friend,
Hershal:)

While some of the lush amongst us want to drink, some of the sober ones want to know the following.

1-Let's say there are twenty replica manufacturers, and Venture goes after only two.
2-Let's say they win their case against those two and those two only.
3-You are manufacturer No.14
4-Are you going to wait until they sue you also, or is the court ruling against the SPF and FFR clear enouh of a verdict for you to fold your tent and go away?

How could Shelby elect to sue those two only. How selective can the plaintiff be when he names just two among many guilty of exactly the same act.

How different is civil law as compared to criminal law? You can't just pick up 10 people at a road block for DUI and take them to jail, and release 8 and keep two.

I don't believe Venture is going after FFR and SPF only because they wish the other manufacturers well. I believe they are doing so because if they sued all 20 or so manuacturers the defendents could easily pool their resources and possibly launch a formidable defense.

I doublt it they just want to shut those two and nothing more.

Why then those two?
IMHO
FFR because they are the highest volume domestic manufacturer.They are the low-end entry level kit, that could easily be presented as evidence that it is of such poor quality and it does not do any justice to those wonderful aluminum bodied CSX cars Shelby is selling.I can just hear it now!

"Your honor our cars cost well over $90,000 and here is this plastic car and bunch of nuts and bolts. Can you not see the difference in quallity? We have no chance of competing with such an outrageous counterfeit."

SPF because it is some foreign company operating out of Africa, who is "ripping Carroll Shelby of his creations". A knock off- A copy- A forgery if you will.

I am not a lawyer and I am very happy about that. I do have my doubts that this is a case against those two manufacturers only. If they prevail, it would not take anything more than a registered letter to, Midstates, Unique, ERA, Johnex, Everett Mopssrison and the rest simply asking them to stop it and stop it NOW!

Name one of the other manufacturers who has a different angle on this that they would elect to go back into court thinking that they will succeed where SPF and FFR failed.

My thoughts!!

Sadly enough, if that happens, SAI will have the last laugh at all of us. I can't blame them.

But if they were to mistake the demise of the Cobra Replica Industry as a new lease in life and record breaking sales for a company currently struggling to sell 6-7 cars a month then We will have the last laugh. No laughing matter everyone looses!

TURK

Care for a drink?
 

Turk:

I'm not lushing it up. I doubt BT and Dan are either. Just some light hearted kidding on a subject some people take a little too serious and personal. While it would be sad to see a court order all the "molds chopped up" the world would not come to cataclysmic end and life would go on for all of us even if that did happen. We would all eventually get over it (I think).

As to your questions that "some of us want to know" we are all on this forum just speculating at the answers to your posed questions. No one here can give you the definite answer you seek. You are asking for legal opinions which may differ.

But since you asked here is my legal opinion. Superformance was sued because they continue to flaunt the fact that they don't make kits they make "Cobras" at least in the ads I have seen . Quite simply they don't make Cobras and never did. They make a replica of a Cobra. Second they make rollers that are nearly complete and sold through dealers. FFR makes only kits sold directly by FFR sans dealer. Two different spectrums of the market. I don't think the quality issue has anything to do with the claims against them based on what I understand to be the legal issues. The issues as I understand them are the right to the trade dress (body shape) and the right to call the vehicle a Cobra or Shelby Cobra and use the logos.

With those two companies they basically hit all others similarly situated. Therefore if they win and factually the FFR and SPF cases are factually similar to what would be the facts in future cases against other companies the other MFG's would probably have to give in and cry uncle especially since the claims as I understand are for the most part based on Federal law.

Criminal law is different than Civil. One involves violations of law established by the State in Statutes and Code that if violated are considered violations against the sovereign. The other involves tortious interference with anothers rights or damage to others usually based on common law (Court decisions). Sometimes they can overlap. Driving drunk and hitting someone while drunk would involve criminal implications and civil by the victim for the injuries. Each would be resolved separately, with the State the plaintiff in the criminal matter and the victim the plaintiff in the civil case.

Taking people to jail for DUI is a different issue than keeping them in jail. Probable cause for arrest vs. constitutional right to bail. The example you posed using DUI is not on point for the issues involved here.

You sir are correct. SAI's plans I believe are the same for all the manufacturers as for FFR and SPF. My opinion. Their decision to bring suit against FFR and SPF factually covers just about all of the others. It was probably the most cost efficient way to proceed. Nothing wrong with that.

I have posted my opinion as to the claims themselves above. No need to repeat that. But if SAI wins look at the bright side. Your ERA just jumped substantially in value. Every dark cloud has a silver lining.

Speed Waxer.









:)

Picture THIS!
 

TURK,
I imagine that the court scene would look like this: Jim Price from Superformance is sitting at a long table with his entourage of legal eagles when suddenly the doors open and the Venture crew wheels this poor "Shel" of a human being into the court room in a rickety wheel chair, probably needing a shave, wearing a worn out cowboy hat. The Venture lawyers present their case stating how everyone has deprived this poor, 80+ year old man of his rightful dues and how in his failing health, he's not sold many continuation cobras despite all efforts to make the business suceed, he can't pay his creditors and he's destitute. Then they'd present all of the 8 x 10 color glossy photos of all of those replica cobras at various events being shown and advertised so well. The jury would have their handkerchieves ringing wet. Hate in their eyes for those despicable manufacturers UNTIL the Superformance attorney stands up and presents ALL of the 8 x 10 color glossy photos of, you guessed it, Carroll Shelby taking pictures of all the replicas at the shows as well as standing beside one of those young, attractive pole takers, with that big Texan smile.
Pictures of pictures being taken.....and they are a reality. This is almost too good for even a Matlock or Perry Mason episode.
Is this a great country or what?

DDS/The First Edition

Evan,

For the record, I did not stir bees nest, just poked at it a little (poke, poke, poke :D :D :D ). The article was published in a major (at that time) magazine, for which I spent the time and energy to actually get permission (granted after the fact) to reprint it here (along with the hour+ it took me to type it in as well). It was a public interview, in which CS himself spoke of what and how he felt about the replicas "at that time"......This thread was almost dead and buried until someone else started it back up again (so, now who is poking at that bees nest).........For the record, CS stated his feelings, those feels have now changed since he feels that there should be no other competition for his new line of replicas/continuation series vehicles......Nothing more, nothing less.....You yourself as a man imersed in the legal field should know how this works...be it civil law, criminal law, or commercial law............



Yours in Fords,

Bill S.

PS: Going to take a road trip out and watch us at Pocono on Saturday???????????????????????

Tom T.

Thanks for mentioning a very important point about the 1997 litigation. That, my friends, leaves CS and SAI at square one.

The fact remains that Shelby did nothing about replica manufacturers for many, many years. My guess is that the court will side with Shelby on the use of the Cobra name, but not on the issue of trade dress. The shape's fair game.

In case anybody's ever noticed, the shape does look better without ANY emblems!

Stan**) **) **)

MORE LIKE WHACK, WHACK, WHACK.
 

Bill:

You walk softly but sure "poke" with a BIG stick. More like a baseball bat. Yes, while Carroll Shelby did say along time ago he felt the replicas were a compliment and he did'nt mind if people built them (at least that what you said the article said) that was then. This is now. Carroll Shelby made clear many many times why he had a change of heart toward the replica industry. Whether you buy the reason or not is up to each individual. The reason why he changed his mind is not important to the issues. The important fact is that he did change his mind at least as to trade dress and whether he waited too long to do it. (the Cobra name and emblems I think have always been protected by Ford and so acknowledged by many replica companies in their ads).

As to Pocono. Yeah. Maybe I will come out. What time. Have to work up to that full membership in the 10% club ya know.

Dan: Entertaining little fictional senerio but pictures of Carroll Shelby taking pictures of Cobras recently is not going to make or break the case and would probably be irrelevant to the issues. I seriously doubt the events would really unfold that way and I suspect so do you. The SAI sales figures are also irrelevant to the issues as I understand them.


Speed Waxer.

:)

True Story
 

In 1962 ,or there abouts , a young fellow by the name of Bruce Meyers" invented " the fibreglass body dune buggy. For the next few years he made many of these bodys, but so did many "pirates". You see ,anybody with some knowlege of fibre glass could see that if they got one of Bruce's bodys, they could use it as a "plug" and splash a mold from it.Well after seeing that half of southern Califonia was splashing his original design, Bruce tried to sue the splashers. At the court case the judge rulled that too much time had passed, Bruce didn't get a design patent soon enough, the "shape was in the public domain".These events happened in the space of 6 or 7 years. (Mr Shelby has taken 30 + years, and is a friend of Bruce Meyers ,so he is well aware of the case) Check it out lawyer types, it's in Califonia case law.circa 1971, I think it's what you guys refer to as "precident"

Yes, while Carroll Shelby did say along time ago he felt the replicas were a compliment and he did'nt mind if people built them (at least that what you said the article said) that was then. This is now.

Sorry to disagree with you with the that was then this is now arguement.
He gave up his rights long ago by, stating he didn't care. The law is clear, you must defend your rights or you lose them.

He gave them up and didn't care that he gave them up. NOW , that he's making replicas he wants them back.. Sorry, the cows left the barn already.

Alternate Court Senario
 

Dan,

Here's how I envision the up comming trial:

Mr. Shelby, are you aware of the Arntz replica built in 1983? You're not? Is this you standing next to one in this photo?

Do you know Ron Butler? Is this a photo of you standing next to him and one of his replicas in 1986?

Is this your signature on the glove box of a 1990 Contemporary? This 1992 ERA? How about this Mid States?......(ad infinitum, ad nauseum).

Did you do anything about these replicas in 1983? 1984? 1985? 1986? 1987? 1988? 1989? 1990? 1991? 1992? 1993? .......

Stan



:JEKYLHYDE :JEKYLHYDE :JEKYLHYDE