Where did ideas really originate from?

[decooney]

I can't help but continue to notice some of the sleek & curvy, V8, sidepipe-equipped type racing muscle cars that came about five or so years prior to the Shelby Cobra. No disrespect here to the Cobra or its origin, but the concept of small car with a big roaring eight cylinder was not a new idea. Built, completed, and raced as early as 1957, pictured here is the Maserati 450s, Tipo 450s - V8 with roaring sidepipes. Just seems like these concepts were really starting to crackle in 1957 before the Cobra.

Maserati Tipo 61 450s, Lister V8s popping up back then... Please forgive me for saying this, but it seems these cars are the true grandfather and concept origin to the 289 & 427 Cobra, roaring sidepipes and all. I find it interesting to see how things might have developed back then.

And, guess who is pictured driving #98 here at Grand Prix Riverside 200 Miles in 1960?. Yep, you guessed it - ol' CS himself. Sidepipes, V8, curvacious, exotic, quick. Hmmmmmmmm...

[BMK]

And demanding very high prices if and when they come up for sale.



Cheers

Bernie

Bernie Knight
Mt. Gambier South Australia.

[KobraKarl]

Duane ,

I believe the concept was in full swing in the late fifties, but for a horrendous wreck killing dozens at ......(not sure) Le man, or some other big venue.....in reaction to this, the engine size was reduced to 3 litre (I think)for several years.....Giving Carroll shelby a chance to ambush every one....(no disrespect intended)

The 57 tipo 450 S is a terrific example ....of a pre Shelby car with a MUCH more sophisticated suspension and dohc engine....although I think it was transverse sprung.

If you have had a chance to see any of the "By design "series on Speedvision", you may have had the chance to hear a 450s still in race tune......Man what a sound !!

KK

[Excaliber]

The 1948 or 49 Ferrari Barchetta is widely acknowledged to be a major turning point in car design. Long hood, short trunk, smooth lines. THAT car, it is said, influenced virtually every make in the world for many years to come, it was the beginning of the "revolution". It was NOT, as someone with a weird "time line" has suggested, the first "Cobra".

Big engine little car goes WAY BACK in racing history. Most pronounced in the EARLY fifties. Side pipes? How about this 1953 Masserati. Is this thing beautiful or what!!

Ernie (link is to Barchetta)

[Steve Cassani]

Take a look at the early fifties Ferrari 225S roadster by Zagato (I don't have a picture I could post here). You'll find much in the car's shape and proportions that suggests the form Tojeiro gave to the AC Ace. The Ferrari had an independent front suspension with a transverse leaf spring. Rear suspension consisted of a live axle. The chassis consisted of two parallel round tubes, approximately tree inches in diameter.

These design methods were common in their day and I'm not comfortable saying Tojeiro 'copied' the Ferrari 225S simply because he began with the best thinking of his time and sought, with success, to improve on it. His Ace used independent suspension all around, again with a transverse leaf spring to dampen vertical travel. The front end of the Ace differs substantially from the Ferrari. This feature contributes more obviously than others to making the design his, but all the likenesses and differences come into our consderation of "Whose idea is this, anyway?"

The continuing changes in the shapes of the 289 Cobra racing cars owe their origin more to evolving tire technology than any effort at design. Initially the V8 cars raced on stock car tires. As these proved less adequate when turning left and right, and braking, the tires retained their bias ply but gained considerably more width than height. Aluminum fenders were first flared, then made to bulge to cover increasingly wide racing tires while minimizing affects on air flow.

To repeat the question: "Whose idea was that?" My answer is: "No one's. It was done to take advantage of wider tires while meeting the requirement that the tire be covered by body work." On this reasoning, the final form of the 427 car was far less a matter of design than was the shape and proportioning of the orginal Ace. The 427 simply repeated the shapes that had evolved on the competition small-block cars.

[maxrpm]

I'm probably wrong, but I thought the notariety of the Cobra was not that it was a new invention or design but that it was the first successful "American" auto built by an American racecar driver/chicken farmer with a grudge against Enzo F. Plus the fact that you could go down to your local Ford dealer, buy one and drive it around the streets of Anytown,USA. Now I could be wrong because I only speak from what I read. The only thing that I knew for sure in 1964 was that I liked eating applesauce.

[decooney]

maxrpm,
Yes, true, let there be no disagreement here about that. Agreed, and totally respected. And its easy to see how the ideas probably started flowing back then. We are just peeling back the onion to the core a bit more to see how and where that farmer might have decided to cultivate and plant it; and he did. i.e. a little root cause analysis and poking around or "Cobra roots research" if you will.

[Excaliber]

Maxrpm, that sums it nicely.

Ernie