who has Shell Valley or A&C in Wash, DC area?

[cobeywan kanobe]

yeah Clay - the 'ole buying used VS new quandary - it's been a battle the whole time.

Sure I think one probadly would do better buying used (as long as the car's in good shape - (all the way down inside the engine for e.g.,)) That's my problem - been swearing by 'used' all my life but recently I've gotten burned buying used because of hidden problems that didn't crop up 'til later on. (Most of which were directly related to how the previous owner treated the car (as oposed to factory issues)).
Problem is I don't know how most Cobra owners treat their cars. (I pretty much figure - even if one is cosmetically in good shape - you and I both know that the owner HAD to have at one time or another pushed the envelope at least once or twice (can't really blame them) - just makes me nervous. I'm thinking I'll want to know the history of the car intimately, and the only real way to be sure may be to be the one to put the first miles on it. . .

It is a quandary. . .

[BLACKJACK]

COBEY,

I THINK YOUR CONCERNS ABOUT HOW THE PREVIOUS OWNER "TREATED THE CAR" ARE VALID. HOWEVER - EVEN THOUGH MOST COBRA OWNERS WILL DRIVE IT HARD FROM TIME TO TIME THE CARS ARE GENERALLY VERY CAREFULLY MAINTAINED.

ADDITIONALY, COBRAS ARE FAIRLY STRAIGHT FORWARD - COMPARED TO MORE MODERN CARS. VERY SIMPLE SYSTEMS AND YOU CAN SEE EVERYTHING EASILY IF YOU GET IT UP ON A LIFT.

A GOOD TEST DRIVE, A CLOSE CHECK OF THE CONDITION OF ALL THE FLUIDS, PULL THE PLUGS, A COMPRESSION TEST, A CLOSE VISUAL INSPECTION AND CONSIDERATION OF THE "OVER ALL" APPEARANCE WILL TELL YOU A GREAT DEAL ABOUT THE CARE THE CAR WAS GIVEN.

FROM AN ECONOMIC STANDPOINT - ECONOMICS OF TIME AND MONEY - BUYING USED (EXCUSE ME - - PREVIOUSLY OWNED) MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.

THE ONLY THING YOU WILL MISS IS THE FUN - PLEASURE OF BUILDING IT YOURSELF. FOR ME THAT WAS A "NO BRAINER". WITH LIMITED TIME, TALENT AND EXPERIENCE AND DAMN FEW "WORKING JOINTS" THE CHOICE WAS PRETTY MUCH MADE FOR ME.

HIGHLY ADVISABLE TO LOOK AT ALL OF THE CARS IN CACC AND GO FOR A DRIVE WITH THE GUYS. I WISH I HAD HAD THAT OPTION WHEN I BOUGHT MINE. AS IT TURNED OUT I'M EXTREMELY HAPPY WITH WHAT I GOT BUT I COULD JUST AS EASILY MADE SOME TRAGIC MISTAKES.

Y'ALL HAVE AREALLY GREAT DAY.

BLACKJACK

[Roscoe]

I'm in NJ with an A&C. A bit out of reach but you may want to check out my build site:

http://www.priveye.com/cobra.htm

Roscoe

[clayfoushee]

Cobey.....you don't need no stinkin' soft top .....just a wind tunnel anyway (tonneau is nice)....just get a nice Thinsulate head warmer.

With a BB, you don't need no stinkin' 5th gear either, depending on the rear-end, unless you're planning on cruising routinely above 100...hope not! Mine's a 3:31 Jag, and a good balance with all that torque. Toploader's rock coupled to BBs!

Also, why don't you ask Cherner to put that car on a lift, and get you the date of manufacture numbers from that SO block, just above the oil pan near the oil intake near the front driver's side of the block. Also, ask them to look for numbers below the heads on the pass. side of the block, which may or not be present. Will at Cherner know's where I live, and they can put it on the lift in my garage if they want with you present.

I can help you identify the heritage of that motor, and if it's a service or replacement block, they may be willing to sharpen their pencils a lot more. No matter what, if it's a real SO, then it's a desirable motor, but it's hard to tell without getting underneath it.

[The Dreamer]

Cobey,

I thought the same as you about 5 speeds, but when I went to the Kirkham I was forced to look at toploaders. I ran the gearing and the spread is actually better (IMHO) than a TKO. That's assuming you get to pick the rear end ratio (I'm going 3.23). The short first gear of the Tremec makes it essentially a 4 speed. I will bring my graphs to the next grease-up so you can see a comparison.

[cobeywan kanobe]

hey Dreamer (sounds more like reality to me (for you) seeing as how you're sportin'a Kirkham). . .

Anyway, thanks, but don't go to too much throuble; keep your graphs on ice, I believe you (And I may not be able to make it out this Saturday, although I'm sure to, pretty soon. (Need to clear my weekend calendar in advance.))

I've heard that about the top loader/BB package - I mean they must rock or the whole package wouldn't have been so appealing in the first place. (Everything from power and torque to just plain noise.)
The package that I have in mind (what people have been advocating to me) is a smaller block (351W or C (I know, big block w/ smaller bore)) w/ 3:50 or 3:73 gears (pref 3:50) and the Tremec 5 speed. It seems to make too much sense for what I'm looking for. Of course I have a brother-in-law that will never speak to me again if I opt for the 2-bolt-main Windsor over the 4-bolt Cleveland, but the Windsor is just so damn popular for the small (other than 302) block crowd. It seems that even the Superformance guys are talking up the Windsor over the BB for several reasons - and truthfully - before I started seriously looking into this project I was DIE-HARD BB fan, no if's, ands or butts. Now I'm actually pretty close to deciding on the SB.
The more I decide - the less I decide.

One day soon I'm going to have to do what all my friends, relatives and acquiantences are telling me to do:
"Just order the damn car already!!!" They're sick of hearing my vasilations. . .

[cobeywan kanobe]

Hey Roscoe!

Yes, great build-site, lots of good links - cool/impressive car - looks like you have logged in some track time as well. . .

It's me, Paul from Wash, DC. Your name was given to me by Sonny up at A&C and you may not remember but you were kind enough to spend a good 45-60 min. on the phone with me a few weeks ago. Your A&C endorsement (and yours isn't the only one) are making my decision easier - It's definetly nice (& necessary) to talk to someone who's got the actual car, and who knows the details.

We had a very nice conversation and I want to thank you again.

I'd like to move on this thing soon, just ironing out a few more details (hopefully) and getting more input.
Having joined the forum obviously has pried open a lot of questions, that I thought were answered (and may indeed actually be). . .

[clayfoushee]

Cobey....can't go wrong with that 351W choice either. You'll be fine no matter what you decide, probably have all the power you want, still enough to scare you from time-to-time. I think you've probably done as much homework as you need to.......just order it, and don't ever hesitate to ask for help from the CACC guys. It's the kind of thing most of us love to do....our passion!

[Roscoe]

Ah Paul....sure I remember the conversation. Well...what are you waiting for......?......order that beast and get it over with.

Roscoe

[MilwDoug]

"The short first gear of the Tremec makes it essentially a 4 speed"


I disagree, it's more like a 3 speed. I very rarely use either 1st or 5th.

[Wade Chamberlain]

Hey Cobey..... if you're really considering the car from Cherner's, do yourself a favor and ask them if it was owned by Tom Emrich. He bought a red Contemporary from them a couple years ago, drove it a while, then I'm pretty sure he traded it back on something else. In the time that he owned it, he earned the nickname "blow-by" for the show he put on at the CACC dyno day. Literally cleared the whole shop. It made some good power, but the smoke you see in the picture below came from the valve cover breathers! Seriously! I know they had some more work done to the car, so the blow-by problem might be history, but it's something worth asking about if it's the same car!

[clayfoushee]

Hmmmm......Wade. Hadn't made that connection, but it does look like the same car. When I saw it, I talked to Will @ Cherner who is a pretty good guy. However, I didn't ask him anything about the last time anyone touched the engine.

[cobeywan kanobe]

Wade,

That sounds very interesting. I can't remember the name of the guy I talked to at Cherner (I'm sure I have it written down somewhere) BUT I distinctly remember him saying that the previous owner had an "M.O" of getting something "new"/different every 6-12 months, which would be consistent with him only having this car for a short time (Hmmmm). velly intellesting. . .

I agree with Clay - this car does indeed look like the same car - I actually have about 10-20 photos of the Cherner car on my computer at work (photos that I took myself when I saw it at Cherner). I'll be able to better hone it down when I get in to work tomorrow and look at my photos. From memory though, the Cherner car definitely had the hood-scoop rivets, it was definitely red with chrome side pipes, roll-bar, and front oval.

Stay tuned. . .

[clayfoushee]

Cobey....please keep us informed, either here or on the CACC site. Wade did say the car made good power, and there are plenty of "gurus" around here who could solve those blow-by problems.

Wade's picture would make one hell of a good negotiating chip with Cherner, now wouldn't it "....he....he.....he...." as our good friend Blackjack says.

[cobeywan kanobe]

Well here's one (I believe) dead give away (please correct me if I'm wrong). How common are clear/white marker light lenses?

When I popped open my pictures this morning I remembered the clear/white marker light lenses I saw on the car at Cherner - I don't remember seeing too many of those (except on my '65 MGB at home). Both the car in the above picture from Wade, and the car in my photos has them. (Is this more rare or more common? I'm used to seeing amber.)

Looking at my pictures - this looks like the same car. (Last night I wasn't sure about the wheels either (I didn't remember them being brushed aluminum (or whatever they are (light, as opposed to dark Halibrand type))) but now I know they too match.

I'm gonna go ahead and call Cherner today (if they're in (Clay, how's the snow in Annap.?)). . .Please stand by. . .

[clayfoushee]

Cobey,

We had about 6 inches, but fluffy stuff.

I have those clear lenses on mine too with amber bulbs, but the vast majority are amber lenses. I guess it depends on the manufacturer. Contemporary may have used clear lenses.

I also remember the Cherner car had true Halibrand-type knockoffs, with the safety wire. I'm betting it's the same car. Check out:

www.cherner.com/classics

There are a lot of good pictures of that car. Let me know what you hear.

[acaskie]

Actually, I think that is Tom Emrich's car. Supposedly, the Cherner folks did a complete rebuild on it after the dyno day troubles surfaced.

One way you can tell for sure is that Tom's oil cooler was not the standard unit with a hose on either side. Instead, it was taller than standard and had both hoses on one side.

It is a pretty car, but the price seems a bit high in the current market.

[cobeywan kanobe]

Clay, that's about the same amount that we got (snow) but I undersatnd the real bad ice storm is on the way tonight/tomorrow morning - it's really expected to turn things upside down.

Yes Cherner does have some good photos on their website - I looked at them a few weeks ago when I came back from thier shop.

I'm still playing catch-up today in the office (shoveling from this morning) and now I have to run out. Hopefully I can call Cherner when I return this afternoon. . . . . . (really busy darn it)

Allen - you're right-on about the oil cooler - definitely a unique size (larger/taller) and configuration; I remember making a note of that as well.

I'm not sure about the price (whether it's too high, or whether it's about correct). I do thnk it may be a little high for what I'm looking for. Although they said they may be able to sharpen the pencil though - and as Clay mentioned - the history may be worth some bargaining power.

Regarding Cherner doing a re-build (or whatever possible remedial work on it) when I spoke to them (inquired) about "any issues" with the car they did mention that they don't do much actually there at their place, but there's a local guy that they trust implicitly to "go through" pretty much all their cars before they sell them. They said that this one had been gone over very thoroughly - I don't recall them mentioning anything specific though - though anything serious or frightening - I would expect them to keep pretty close to the vest, unless specifically asked about. . .
Perhaps, Clay, do you know the local shop that does their (we'll call them) "certifications" or "point-to-point" checkouts? Whoever that is woudl probably know ALL the details (but given his relationship with Cherner, may be prohibited (business-wise) from discussing it. . .

[clayfoushee]

OK...here's the definitive word.

I just spoke to Will @ Cherner Classics. It is Tom Emrich's car, and Will was totally upfront about it. He knew about the blow-by problem and said the top end of the engine has been totally re-done.

I also told him that many Cobrafiles thought the price was too high, and his response was, "find me another 427SO in a quality replica for less, and I'll buy it on the spot." He specifically mentioned, Contemporary, ERA, Unique, SPFs or cars whose suspensions were designed for BBs. That's what they value in this market.

While many don't value SO's enough to pay that price, I guess the classics experts still think they merit that. Obviously, they also need a little room to make a few bucks for themselves. Having said all of that, there may be some negotiating room.

[cobeywan kanobe]

Thanks for the leg-work Clay! You beat me too it! - I just dug up Cherner's number and was about to call.
(5:30 p.m. and I'm still in the office playing catch up - I'm now up to where I should have been at 8 a.m. this morning(!).)

I imagine some of that price has to be for covering that top end re-work. Just the same - having that done - that engine is now probably in pretty good shape