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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2004, 07:51 PM
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Default Help...Fuel in my oil !!!

Long story... short, been having problems with the car running right. May be a carb problem or ignition, not sure yet. Evidently its getting to much fuel or its not firing on all 8 cause its loading up in the cylinders and getting down into the oil (also coming out sidepipes). Drained it and it was close to water consistency. Only ran it about 20-25 mins total trying to troubleshoot it but only in the driveway not under load at all. How many oil changes do I need to clear this up once I figure out the problem? What about gaskets, will it affect them? Hoping to get the owner of a race shop to come over and take a look this week.

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Trueoo7
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Old 04-04-2004, 08:18 PM
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Default Fuel in Oil

True,

How's the oil pressure?

I had a similar problem last year. Here's a link to a thread about my problem. Turned out to be washed out bearings, loss of pressure, and then worn out rings and cylinder walls.

Hope you problem is not as serious as mine was.

Gas in Oil
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Old 04-04-2004, 08:55 PM
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That much gas in the crankcase may be caused by a bad mechanical fuel pump. If the diaphram is punctured it may still pump gas but allow gas to pass through the housing into the engine.

If no mechanical pump..I dunno...

John
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Old 04-04-2004, 09:16 PM
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Do not knowingly operate with heavy fuel load in the oil, besides the lubrication issues already spoken of, should the fuel or fuel vapors ignite it will absolutely blow the pan and valve covers off, I have seen and heard it happen. Tech in our shop was attempting to correct the tune on a two year old poorly cared for car (infrequent oil changes) as he was adjusting the carb (at the time) BANG!! the noise cleared the showroom floor as we all went to see what happened. It was as loud as a magnum load shotgun. The force lifted the valve covers and popped the pan (tore the metal near the attaching bolts for both). Rang the guys bell real well.


Be careful

Rick
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Last edited by Rick Parker; 04-04-2004 at 09:19 PM..
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Old 04-05-2004, 04:08 AM
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Default Gas in Oil

True,

We need to know some history about the engine and how it performed up to now. Also, what about some specs, carb size, cam lift & duration, type of fuel delivery (mechanical or electric?). A cam that is too lumpy and incorrectly matched with an oversized carb could allow more time for fuel to load up the cylinders at a rate that the ignition cannot efficiently combust and exhaust.

When did the problem first occur and how long have you run the engine since? If the cylinders became loaded with fuel, the fuel may have washed down the cylinder walls. You said it's coming out of the sidepipes. Are you getting oil out of the sidepipes? When I had my problem. there was actually wet oil at the sidepipes. Fuel had washed out the cylinder walls and even removed the crosshatch honing from the cylinder walls.

You said that the oil is very thin. This would occur with gas in the oil. You should also be able to smell the fuel in the oil. What about the oil itself, are there any metal particles in the oil? You may want to pull the oil filter and cut it open to inspect for any metal particles. Be careful when you cut it open so you don't confuse the filings from cutting it open with any metal already in the filter.

You said that the engine had been running poorly and possibly not firing on all eight. Are you sure that the valve timing is correct? Ignition timing could also be a cause of problems. If a cylinder is not firing when it should, the fuel mixture in that cylinder has to go somewhere, but usually if the ignition timing is off, the mixture will ignite either on intake or exhaust stroke causing a backfire either through the carb or through the exhaust. Cold time the ignition. Disconnect the secondary coil wire, pull #1 plug and with your finger in the plug hole bump crank the engine until you feel pressure at the plug hole. then hand crank the engine bringing #1 to TDC. Then follow the firing order making sure of the firing order sequence.

Unless the problem is obvious such as a carb that is improperly adjusted allowing raw fuel to leak down into the engine, or it's a blown diaphragm on the fuel pump, I would begin by doing a compression test of all cylinders. What you should look for is consistency in the reading from cylinder to cylinder +/- 15 psi. Depending what heads and cam you're running you should see compression readings somwhere in the 175-180 psi. Perform the test dry first and then squirt some oil into each cylinder and try the test again. If there is a vast increase in the readings with the oil test, that would indicate rings. If the readings are low and using the oil doesn't increase the readings, that would indicate worn valve guides or valve timing is out.

If the readings are good wet & dry, you may be okay as far as internal troubles. If the readings are generally low or if one or more is considerably lower than the others, you have an internal problem. If you have two adjacent cylinders with low readings and the others are fine, that would indicate a blown head gasket.

Once you've completed the compression test, if you haven't discovered the cause, my next step would be to drop the pan and pull a main cap and also a rod cap and inspect the bearings. Also examine the crank journals, they should be smooth with no scoring.

The bearings are copper with a coating of babbit. The babbit is a dull grey color and if the bearings are okay, that's what they should like. If they have washed out, the dull grey finish will be worn off and you will see the copper core of the bearings. In my case the babbit wore off and the crank journals were scored.

I pulled my block and when I had the cylinders dial bore gauged, they were on average .036" over in the centers of the cylinders. My block was supposedly .030'd over, but the excessive wear indicated it had already been .030'd over and the builder probably just honed the heck out of the cylinders to try and true them up.

I ended up getting another block and I built it up myself and no problems since.

By the way, to rule out the carb I changed my Road Demon 725 for a Holley 600 and to rule out the pump, I changed the mechanical fuel pump from an Edelbrock to a stock pump.

I don't say any of the above to discourage you but rather to make you aware of what the worst case scenario could be. Take your time and be methodical about how you proceed to diagnose the problem and hopefully your situation won't be as bad as mine was.

Keep in mind that the two most common ways for fuel to get into the oil is either past the rings or through a blown fuel pump diaphragm.

I will try to find pics of my worn bearings and post them here.

Good luck and I'd be more than glad to help in any way I can.

Tony
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Old 04-05-2004, 04:21 AM
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Default Bearing Pics

True,

Here're some pics of what my bearings looked like.



Bearings

Bearing2
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Old 04-10-2004, 05:04 PM
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True....

Ever find the cause of the gas in the oil?

Curious to know the answer in case it happens to me

John
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Old 05-18-2004, 08:35 PM
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Default Finally, back up and running again !!

After a long, and frustrating 6-7 month problem I am on the road again. After checking everything under the sun, and I mean everything, we finally narrowed it down to the carb. Numerous calls to the manufacturer, trying this, adjusting that, nothing seemed to work (Barry Grant, speed demon jr. 625cfm with 375 miles on it). Finally decided to send it back, turns out it had quite a few problems, cracked booster, jammed up choke which was also cracked, bent screw in the metering block. Although it was out of warranty they fixed it all, no charge.
I could have speeded up the process had I paid a little more attention when it was running right. Never paid attention to how much gas flows into the carb during idle. THERE IS NONE, well none that you can see anyway. Mine was POURING in. Probably fill up a coffee cup in about 10-15 seconds. I thought that was normal, which explains all the problems, the engine was literally drowning in gas. I know better NOW. Its not easy finding people who know carbs anymore either, everything is Supercharged or fuel injected.
Well anyway, I hope this helps somebody down the road someday. As for me the only good thing about this experience was when I finally got to drive it again tonight, it was like the first time all over again. What a RUSH, absolutely awesome !!!
Thanks to all for all the help and advice on all the different threads I posted about this. Couldn't have done it without ya's.

Trueoo7
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