Flat tappet cam life

[Excaliber]

I don't think the blame for oil leaks with synthetic lays with the engine builder. Some engines, like FE's, just don't lend themselves well to it's use. Not every application can be justified for synthetics, especially as it concerns break in period. I won't use it in my 650cc bike either, but many do. I remain skeptical of it from a cost/benefit analysis standpoint. The extra long miles between oil changes is a moot point due to the low miles my Cobra acquires on a yearly basis. I change oil based on TIME, not miles driven. Same for my Jeep, I don't drive it enough miles to justify the added expense and 'risk' of synthetic oil.

As to STP leaving a varnish, to that I also remain skeptical in a real world application such as a low mileage vehicle! Again cost/benefit analysis leads me to believe it's a good product, and worth the 'risk'. You would have to GREATLY over use the suggested amount to increase the viscocity rating an appreciable amount, all things should be done in moderation!

People ask me all the time what oil I recommend, by standard answer has always been: Select a product you like and one that is EASY to find most anywhere and STAY with it, then change oil on a regular basis. I think the worst thing you can do is 'mix and match' different oil brands and additives.

[4pipes]

Well, I spent a fair amount of time looking for a high ZDDP oil. I only found one company that openly cites the amount of ZDDP in their products.....Valvoline.

Their 20w50 VR-1 conventional oil looks like it fits the bill perfectly for an FE:

http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR...otor%20Oil.pdf

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I don't think the blame for oil leaks with synthetic lays with the engine builder. Some engines, like FE's, just don't lend themselves well to it's use. Not every application can be justified for synthetics, especially as it concerns break in period..................

I know of several CSX4000's that are using synthetic of one brand or another, all the owners are satisfied with the synthetic oil performance. I think the statement the FE engines are not well suited to it's use is unjustified.

As for using it for break in, after my engine was rebuilt, I didn't use it, I wanted my rings to seat before hell froze over. But many many manufacturers do put it new engines, again with great results, as they can control tolerances to the degree necessary for ring break-in not to be a factor.

Z. Ray

[4pipes]

Ray, synthetics are not recommended for FE's with flat tappet cams. It's a separate problem than ring sealing. Crane cams states on their website that synthetics may be too slippery for the lifters to rotate adequately in their guides (not enough friction between the lifter and the cam), and that if the cars are not started regularly, the oil will drain off the cam faster than conventional oils.

[427SnakeSC]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

Ray, synthetics are not recommended for FE's with flat tappet cams. It's a separate problem than ring sealing. Crane cams states on their website that synthetics may be too slippery for the lifters to rotate adequately in their guides (not enough friction between the lifter and the cam), and that if the cars are not started regularly, the oil will drain off the cam faster than conventional oils.

When I picked up my 427 from Keith Craft this summer, I asked him which oil I should use. His recommendation was "any good quality conventional oil." I think there have been other threads that Keith has been quoted as saying the same thing.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

Ray, synthetics are not recommended for FE's with flat tappet cams. It's a separate problem than ring sealing. Crane cams states on their website that synthetics may be too slippery for the lifters to rotate adequately in their guides (not enough friction between the lifter and the cam), and that if the cars are not started regularly, the oil will drain off the cam faster than conventional oils.

Facts are in short supply in this discussion. Without comprehensive scientific research they always will be. What we are left with is direct real life experience, and hear-say. Neither of which is a broad proof of fact.

No cam manufacturer, no oil company, and no engine builder are going to admit fault. They will point elsewhere, to the other factors, as Crane does with "maybes" and other vague references. With flat tappet engines declining in numbers, the importance of this issue to be scientifically researched is also on the wane. We are left to determine what works on a case by case basis. There will never be a scientifically proven, definitive yes or no on the use of synthetic oil in flat tappet engines of differing designs. All one can do is observe what works for them, and make decisions accordingly.

I have experience with Ford small block, and the FE series of engines that have used synthetic oils in racing and street applications, over a period of years, without the problems others have encountered. So using a oil with superior wear characteristics make sense for me. If others have had a negative experience when using synthetic oils, they may decide the problem was causes by a lubrication issue, and go back to a conventional oil.

Cams and lifters have been failing for years before synthetic oil were introduced. So it seems unlikely that all current failures can be ascribed to the use of synthetic oil.

Z. Ray

[rdorman]

The new formulation of Rotella T 15W-40 that meets the CJ-4 spec contains 1210 ppm zinc, the max allowed for CJ-4. If I recall correctly, it used to be about 1400. 1210 is plenty.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...up=Lubrication

It is my understanding the companies like Crane and Comp Cams have changed hardening processes in respoonse to lower phospated ash/zddp.

[jdean]

Something does not seem right here - Mobil 1 is increasing ZDDP while Shell Rotella (which I use) is decreasing it?

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by jdean

Something does not seem right here - Mobil 1 is increasing ZDDP while Shell Rotella (which I use) is decreasing it?

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...t_Engines.aspx

Mobil is touting several weights of oil as being recommended for flat tappet engine designs. The 15W-50 weight seems to be one with the most ZDDP & phosphorus


http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...AQs.aspx#FAQs3

"....Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago. ....."

Z. Ray

[Excaliber]

My experience with solid ROLLER cams is failure of the lifter roller BEARINGS. Cam lobe damage follows as a result of lifter failure. New roller lifter bearing designs allow for greater oiling of the roller bearing in the lifter itself. It's more expensive than the standard roller design and the solid lifter ONLY FE blocks may not allow for enough oiling of a roller lifter even with the new designs.

[Jerry Clayton]

Actually higher rpms are better for cal oiling than easy road miles

[Jac Mac]

Every 4th season of SFOS racing from my experience Ant & that includes letting the rockers off each year. BTW I have not forgotten your shifter lever, its still here.

[Ant]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

Every 4th season of SFOS racing from my experience Ant & that includes letting the rockers off each year. BTW I have not forgotten your shifter lever, its still here.

Hi Jac Mac,

Thanks that sounds like a good schedule, I turn my engine one complete turn every month for what its worth. I used to loosen rockers, but havent bothered with this engine, maybe its a good preventative measure, I was under the impression modern valve springs are a lot better than the mid 1970's product?

I would like to organise the shift lever, might email you and get your contact number, let me know as I am getting closer to needing it.

[Jac Mac]

Not a problem on the lever--
The TVR donk suffers more damage from corrosion etc than any actual usage, Normally we shut it down/choke it to death on oil each year- basicly squirt oil down the two front barrels while its running @ around 2500 rpm until its showing blue smoke out back, once the smoke shows we kill it & be ready to stall if necessary in top gear, too much oil & they will diesel or in worst case scenario run backwards, you dont want that to happen believe me! It happened to me on my old Boss 302 once- never ever again, I didnt realise how many Fugly noises a motor could make.
One broken valve spring & signs of delamination in the cam brgs, along with a stretched timing chain were only problems after five seasons in total on that build- hence my suggestion of four seasons max. Only one outer coil broken ( In two places ), no apparent reason & no other collateral damage so I would suggest that it happened during last race or later. Gotta be lucky sometime.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by rdorman

While there are tons of reasons why you can destroy a cam, one of the more recent hot topics has to do with zinc content. Having lost a cam myself while running Mobil 1, I have been thinking of a change. Nothing against Mobil 1... I have used it for years in my other cars with great sucess... but those cars did not have a flat tappet camshaft. My Cobra does.

I have been considering switching to Rotella T synthetic 5W-40 partly because of the zinc content. Plus it is available at darn near every truck stop in the country and at $13 a gallon (Wal-Mart), the value is hard to agrue with. So, I contacted Shell, told them of our issue and asked them for their advise. Here is their response:

"The Rotella T oils, both the conventional 15W-40 and the synthetic 5W-40, are formulated primarily for diesel engines. Although exact additive concentrations are proprietary, the Rotella T oils have a robust anti-wear additive chemistry and contain substantially more zinc than a dedicated gasoline engine oil that must meet the ILSAC GF-4 requirements for concentration of metallic and phosphorous based additives because of their effect on catalytic converters. While we have no data exclusive to flat tappet camshaft designs, we would expect the Rotella T Synthetic 5W-40 to perform well in these engines."

If you care to see what the zinc content of the oil you are using is, a quick search on Google should give you the information you need.

I have also contacted Crane Cams to get their input and will post it here once received.

I've run nothing but Rotella T 15/40W in eveything I own from my 3.5hp Briggs/Stratton garden tiller to my 475hp race car and everything in between for the last 15 or so years....
here's what I've found...
Company car # 1, 250,000 miles, no problems
Company car # 2, 385,000 and counting, no problems
05 Super duty diesel, 25,000 and counting, no problems
65 Mustang fastback, 23,000 and counting hard miles, no problems
18hp riding mower, no problems
race car, 3 race seasons, no problems,475 hp, 7000rpm chip, on track rpms stay between 3500 and 6800 for 20 to 30 minute races...
daughter's Toyota, 90000 miles and counting, no problems
wife's Taurus, 60000 and counting, no problems

Guess I'll keep using the stuff, it works for me...........

David