Viper Engines For Cobra's, Yes Or No!!!

[Double Venom]

The SS shown became later on became a good friend. He and My son were talking years later and "he" was telling my son about the time a Cobra pulled the wheels next to him and totally embarrassed him self. (oops, didn't mean to do that!)

[Buzz]

Last month I had to fly up to Miami for a few days to pick up some items for a new business and I decided on a whim to book a hotel right on Ocean Drive in South Beach. When I wasn't shopping and shipping stuff out, I basically kicked back in the sidewalk bistros and watched the wild and crazy world go by. Lots of awesome old muscle, the usual parade of modern day automobilia, and plenty of exotics driving by and parking along the street. On sunday evening, a red Ferrari 360 Modena Spyder and a sleek orange (!) Lambo Gallardo Spyder parked nose to tail were the focus of attraction and comments from patrons and passersby. The occasional double stretch hummer, old Stingray, turbo Porsche or muscle car would draw some of the attention and a posse of custom choppers across the road had their own little gathering. As I sat there sipping, eating and thinking that I had seen just about every interesting car under the sun except a Cobra, a deep, ominous, menacing rumble made everyone stop what they were doing. Thinking "Cobra!" I turned to see a silver and blue Viper GTS with a huge wing, IMSA style bodywork and massive rubber swaggering down the street - like a hulking silverback gorilla, ballz swinging, belching, coughing, pharting and spitting with sheer arrogance and impunity - it sounded like a nitro funny car, shaking the ground and setting off alarms as it rumbled by. The sound was hair raising, even for a bald headed Cobra owner. I had heard the disappointing note from Vipers before but this was something else - far from stock and maybe open pipes. Everyone, even the custom bikers, stared in uneasy silence and the owners sitting next to the Ferrari and Lambo basking in the adulation quietly turned and looked the other way much like smaller dogs, wise enough not to risk making eye contact with the growling, strutting alpha-male. After it disappeared from view and it was safe again, everything slowly returned to normal, but I was branded with the memory of one of the meanest, nastiest cars I have ever seen on a public street. Never did see a single Cobra in five whole days.

[CobraDan]

I met the owner of the Hunter Viper V10 Cobra at the Turkey Rod Run a few years back at Randy Hunters rented space at the show, I never got to talk with Randy as he was not present at the time but the owner said Randy had put the engine into the Cobra. At the Turkey Rod Run the car was not completely done at the time, but I also got to talk again with the owner at DVSFIV where the car was listed for sale. This man had worked for Chrysler and some how had a source of getting Viper engines and wanted to build and sell Viper engine equipped cobras, but like Ed said I don’t think they sold very well starting at over $50,000, and I don’t think any more were built except that first one.

[richsd]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There are only a handful of engines I would personally consider 'appropriate' for a replica build, just my opinion you understand. The Viper V-10 is one such engine, perhaps because of it's connections through various people to the Cobra world.

Other interesting motor swaps that are pleasing to MY eye would be a Jaguar V-12 in a Cobra, no particular history there however, except an English connection.

A handful of engines appropriate for a relica build and this includes a Viper V-10 engine? Maybe for a kit car build that uses a body that resembles a Cobra. For a "replica" that actually "replicates" a Cobra the handful would be a 427 Ford, 428 Ford, 289 Ford, and maybe a few other Ford options if you want to stretch your imagination a bit.

It is strange to say that a "Viper V-10 is one such appropriate engine, perhaps because of it's connections through various people to the Cobra world" but that "a Jaguar V-12 has no particular history". Neither of these options have any history associated to a Cobra.

For your selection, it all depends on the purpose of your build. If you are intending to build a kit car that has a Cobra shaped body then it makes no difference what engine you use. Use whatever engine you like. If you are intending to build a replica that actually replicates the Cobra then you should be looking only at a FE engine.

In regards to resale value, as others have mentioned, that depends on the buyer. Some will not care what motor is in the car because they are looking for a kit car and some will only consider a car with an original type engine because they are looking for an accurate replica. For those that will settle for something that was not used in an original Cobra, the overall quality of the work is going to play a large role in the resale value regardless of what engine you have selected.

I would also say that it depends on what you are doing with the rest of the car. If you are focusing on originality on the rest of the car why would you screw that up with a motor that was never in a Cobra. If the rest of the car has limited attention to originality then a non-original motor will fit with that theme just fine.

[Excaliber]

I fully concur richsd, there are only a few engines that are acceptable for a GREAT replica, the original ones!

A few others are so 'over the top' you just gotta smile! A Hemi goes well in just about any application, for instance. A VW? Nah, I couldn't go that way!

I saw a Rat Rod the other day with a late 50's Olds engine. A breath of fresh air compared to the ever present GM small block.

[richsd]

Yep, all depends on the purpose of the build and usually that purpose varies with each individual. The trick on resale is finding that person that has the same profile in mind as you had during the build.

A Hemi in a VW, now that would be fun.

[Michael4yah]

Thanks for all your comments.

I guess we can place Cobra builders into 3 categories. 1) Those who value originality above all, 2) Those who dont have the finances to build an adequate FE or 289 powered Replica, 3) And those of us that just cant leave well enough alone!!
All of those who fall into the 3rd category like myself shouldnt be made to feel guilty. We are spurred on by a design that wasnt perfect to start with. No disrespect intended. The Cobra stands tall because of the PEOPLE that built it. And it is Very Scary Fast even in stock form. We just feel a need to "Help it along" from time to time. The originals didnt have electric pull fans so they overheated easily. Ive talked to original owners of those Cars and to them overheating was a real pain in the A$$. Answer ? All of us use electric pull fans and nobody cries "It isnt original"!! ...Why ? Because we needed it. Now we look at the pricing of some of these original design parts and what do we see? 427 FE engines that sell for 15-20 thousand when newer non original design crate engines can be had for 1/2 that. How about $5000.00 for a Salisbury Rear end?? Basicly a 50 year old design put into a 500.00 alum housing? There are better rear ends out there at 1/2 the price. Transmissions too! Most Toploader Cobras go down the highway taching 2500 to 3000 rpm litterally wearing out their high priced FE engines way before their time. Answer ? A non Toploader 5 or 6 spd trans. Not original but hey Its an improvement isnt it. I guess my last word on this is.... America was made strong by its people. A People who tinkered with things and made them go faster, sometimes safer but nearly always "Better". I hope that even though we live in this stupid nonsensical age of Political Correctness etc, we all will leave lots of room for those who try to make things better, faster, or sometimes just more liveable.
Thanks for sharing guys.
Michael

[Douglas Rizzo]

..are usually weak in the crankshaft dept. Not only does the Viper V-10 sound kinda "funny" the Ford V10 doesn't have a great "note" to it either although not as buzzy.

In any event, generally the cranks are the weak areas in these motors.

If going for something that bulky why not use a 427 SOHC? They sound great!
-Doug

[BossCER]

technically still an FE I think. It should meet their stringent criteria.

[Excaliber]

Michael4yah, I'll take door number 1, but can only afford door number 2! Door number 3 is what keeps Club Cobra from getting boring.

[Michael4yah]

Hey Ernie, How much was Double Venom offered to you for?

[Excaliber]

Well I wouldn't feel comfortable saying how much, I think thats DV's business, but it's an offer I seriously considered...

[Double Venom]

Michael4yah,
We actually (due to many outside sources) raffeled off the original DV for my last Fling. Chuck Siefke from Springfield was the winner. Chuck has been racing it ever since and has told me he refuses to even let his Corvette brethern drive it because it is so scary fast After three years he has offered it to me for around 50K which if I had the cash I would jump on it!

Fella, if you decide to do it-DO IT! Done right, right suspension etc. the things are amazing. Absolutely feel free to call if you want, I will discuss the downsides with you at your lenght. I.e; wiring, (major item), especially now since Viper does not sell the "conversion" kit anymore. (They didn't do it when I did it either!) Headers absolutely have to be hand/custom built, frame rails even on a CR II car have to be modified for that huge bellhousing BUT the engine will fit in the hole marvelously! At your service Sir-please do not hesitate.
Ed/DV Combs

[Michael4yah]

Ed, thanks, your a real gentleman. I really appreciate your offer of help. Ive got a big decison to make this weekend. I have an opportunity to buy a complete driveline from a 06 Gen3 with only 1000 Miles on it. I already bought a Gen 3 Rear end that Im toying with thats good for 800hp but there's a good chance that I would end up using an IRS 9 inch. . My kit is an Alum Hi Tech (Phoenix) that I bought , just frame and body. Part of me thinks it should go original cause the Hi techs were so close to being a exact copy and Im not wild about cutting the crossmembers of this frame. I already own a T56 That was made special for an FE, but even with an FE engine Id have to cut that crossmember and add one further back for the trans mounts. Then the other part of me wants to do something really different with it. I've already bought many FE parts, all except the block and rotating assembly. I was going to go with a Pond Alum block and Scat stroker. But Its like they say, "Just when I thought I was out...... They dragged me back in" So here I am. Now that Ive got you on the line Id like to ask a couple questions if you dont mind.

1) One the motor location. Did you use the Stock Viper block mount location? How close did it come to where the FE mounts would have been? What were your calculations like on set back etc?
2) On the wiring. Ive got a friend who owns his own shop and suggested going with a FAST controller. I know very little about wiring these modern motors but thankfully he does.
3) Did your engine location (setback) change on the subsequent DVs that you built?
4) What was the lengths of driveshafts did you end up with? Ive heard that when they arent long enough (ie have enough travel)they have a tendency to heat up the ujoints etc and sometimes fail. Did you have any problems with that or any driveline vibration problems?
5) DId you have to make any adjustments to the pinion angle?
6) What were the sizes of your primaries and collectors on your headers Ive seen some SS stepped headers that are supposed to add 50 horse and sound alot better. One thing about these speed merchants , they are not shy when pricing some of this stuff. 3500 for headers alone! Ive decided not to get too excited over the price of this stuff. When you decide to do a project like this you throw all that judgement stuff out the window and concentrate on doing whats best for the car.
7) What suspension did you end up with. Was there any problems getting it to work at all speeds? (ie. alignment gremlins, drifting at speed)?
8) What oil pan did you go with, Looks like Vipers are a rear sump, Ive talked to some Viper guys about getting a dry sump. THey only want 5K!

Ed Im really glad your willing to help. I know if I decide to do this Im gonna need all the help I can get. Thanks again.
Michael

[Double Venom]

Michael4yah,
Even though I took a 9" OEM rear housing and split or twisted it in half I would definately still go with a 9". Only one of the after market ones that have a full guarantee for racing. The OEM Viper 3rd member aint gonna fit and it will drive you nuts for suspension!

Stock motor location: When we built the next generation of DV's our weight ratios with 187 lb driver, with absolutely everything, turned out within 1% of "X-ing" out at 50%. Front to rear was 49% front w 51% weight to the rear- we could only make it worse so we didn't try anymore.

Remember the ENTIRE V-10 motor with, half bellhousing, flywheel, clutch,starter, alternator* serpentine belts everything bolted to the motor weighed in at 611lbs. Almost 100 lbs lighter than a Ford 351 minus the entire bellhousing-clutch assembly, intake carb, distributor, alternator, starter etc. In other words hundreds of lbs lighter than a basic 351 full motor!

Bottom line measurements, personally with your type Cobra I would locate the mounts in the exact place or set the motor back no more than 3/4".

Drive Shaft: We used the Viper drive shaft which was recut, balanced under water no less, and rewelded by Spicer. Thank you Spicer! The OEM drive shaft works very nice and if I remember correctly (Don't count on that these days!) our shaft ended up being around 18"s OC-'U'-joints. My thoughts on a drive shaft being to short is hog-wash. To me it only means the guy that put it in didn't read his gauges right and got the shaft in to far off set.

Pinion angle- I think with the monster torque we were putting out we used rougly a 1.5 degree down angle on the pinion at "parked".

Headers-you will have to make your own headers I know of no Cobra frames that will allow OEM Viper manifolds-BUT with our headers and sidepipes and dyno'd multiple times our DV's constantly put out around -believe it or not- 427 to 435 horses at the wheels!

OIL PAN- Boy did I learn that one the hard way! On the skid pad when Roger was pulling 1.3G's plus we burned up #3 bearing. The Viper holds 11 qts in a very special, basically flat oil pan. At the 1.3G's all the oil is forced into a valve cover starving the crank bearings! (I did call Viper immediatley after the problem and they told me or asked me how in the hell did I get over 1.3Gs out of a cobra KIT? They new at 1.3 and above the Viper motor needed oiling help!) Solution is two fold, a very simple one is to remove the oil pan, (very simple process-even in the car) study the design for a minute then you will understand what I am saying. Put a small swing door inside on each end of the middle- when the cars starts a hard trurn the doors will swing closed keeping the oil in the pan! Very simple, cheap and it works!
OR spend the money and work and go with a dry sump- it works!

Suspension: Front suspension was a standard CR II front suspension. I used 450 lb coil-over springs up front (we did try 4 different spring settings) Tubular front control arms.
Sway bar: Depending on the track we took it off or hooked it up. On some tracks it even slowed us down ??
Rear, again was Dons supplied 250/350 lb coil-overs-no sway bar at all!
WIRING: Boy Dodge has made it tough for us now-they finally relented for us and made it very easy then when Gen3 motors came out they basically slammed the door shut in our face.
You MUST use all 4 02's at this point OR contact John Spina-Caspers Electronics in Chicago. John is a major Cobra player, freak when it comes to ALL type of wiring and knows everything there is to know about ECM's. 02's etc.
I would suggest one thing, if your going to do this project use a GM one wire alternator. Very simple to adapt AND it eliminates an entire wiring nightmare. The ECM in a Viper wants to know battery temp. (two more wires) Idle output of the alternator, middle speed and high end output. If you eliminate it all by going with the GM it's done in ten minutes!

Speeds: Problem; fella with Rogers help and any "Pro" can do the same thing, the car obviouslyu handeled like a true dream at all speeds! Our only problem was at the 157 mark the nose wanted to dangerously lift or become airborne. A much needed front wing/spoiler was absolutely necessary above 140! Of course I don't think that had anything with being a DV I think it was because it was a Cobra!

A war story! Jerome Kowalik, out driver at Run N Gun in St. Louis over powered the DV in the chicanes loosing control and almost hitting the wall! Scared me to death but not Jay, he ended up facing the wrong way, dumped the clutch, spun the car around-never- leaving the track- and continued on his way still winning our class by 2 + seconds!

Yep, I do love those cars! Keep my number-I can talk a heck of a lot easier and faster than I can type!
Ed/DV Combs

[Michael4yah]

Thanks Ed. Your experience will be extremely valuable if I undertake this journey. No man is an Island. Can you email me Michael4yah@msn.com With your number. Thanks Michael

[Jim Holden]

There is an ERA out there somewhere with a Ferrari Daytona V12 in it.

Jim

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Jim Holden

There is an ERA out there somewhere with a Ferrari Daytona V12 in it.

Jim

Really? I would love to hear what that thing sounds like. Must be strange to hear the sound of that V-12 when you'd expect an FE.

[Jim Holden]

Chap:

The installation was done approx. 20 years or so ago. The only visual external tip off was where the exhaust exited to the side pipes; instead of four into one, there was six into one...

There are some pictures up at the shop of the car... somewhere. Bob probably has it scanned in somewhere.

Jim

[greg schroeder]

I know a couple guys with twin turbo Vipers and a handful with modified Viper N/A engines. I could see having some fun with 1000+ wheel HP twin turbo Viper engine in a Cobra, but then again if I was going to spend the money I think I'd rather have a V8 small block Ford with turbos.