Eco-Friendly Nostalgic Muscle...Is it possible?

[khansmith]

I was reading an article today called "End of an Era" that reported "New rules will force the car kings to shift their focus. Revised CAFE standards require automakers to raise the average mileage of their car and truck fleets to 35 mpg by 2020. Proposed pollution standards in the U.S. and Europe may force even more dramatic increases. And if California wins the right in court to regulate global-warming emissions, you might just kiss your super-powered car goodbye — at least those that rely solely on gasoline.."

This got me thinking about the future of our hobby as it seems that more and more states are requiring that a kit car meet the EPA standards of the year it is built; not the year it represents nor the year of the engine block. And if that is the case, not only do our more "classic" engines not fit the bill anymore but you have to plan 2-3 years out depending on your build speed to make sure you hit the epa standards at time of inspection. So how do we carry on this great hobby without moving forward with "green" technology? It's seems almost impossible to honor the hobby by building a period correct car in the not so distant future......or is it?

So here is the question for the board: Could you build "green" powerplant that looks and sounds like a classic but passes today/tomrrow's EPA standards?

If so, tell us how you would do it:
1.) Block: BB or SB? What type (FE, etc) ?
2.) Fuel Delivery: Carb or EFI? What type?
3.) Fuel Type: Ethanol, etc
4.) Exhaust: CAT or No?

[ROUSHAC]

Probably be a better idea to just get one of these and get to 88 mph to go back to when none of this matters:

Flux Capacitor - $175,000.00 : KaleCoAuto, Hard to find automotive items!

[Aussie Mike]

One of the things I like about my LS1 is that it makes great power but still gets good economy on a trip.

We've had to comply with emissions laws down here for years with our Cobras. If you build one it has to be registered as a new car and concequently has to meet all of the design rules set down for new cars. We have to source a motor that meets the current emissions lars (Euro#3 from memory) and run cats etc. Economy isn't a requirement yet but these modern motors get good mileage just because of their eficiency and design.

With the T56 6 speed pox and it's 0.5 OD 6th gear the car is loping along at 1500RPM at freeway speeds. On a trip I can expect 10L/100K which is about 23.5 MPG

Some of the new Diesel engines ar becoming quite stout performers. I've got a 2 litre turbo diesel in my VW that easily out performs it's 2 Litre Petrol stablemate. It still returns 5.2L/100 (45MPG) on a trip and 6.2L/100 (38MPG) driving around the city. It's fairly clea and only puffs a bit of smoke when you put your foot down. It's quiet and the only time you know it's a diesel is at idle or low speeds. Once you are up and runing it sounds like any other new car.

Audi's current Lemans dominating sports car is a V12 turbo Diesel. Check out the Audi R10: Audi R10 Maybe this will be the future of Green perfomance engines?

Cheers

[khansmith]

Thanks for the input guys. Short of time travel and modern powerplants & diesel solutions (which I am a big fan of), does anyone have any thoughts on the original question I posed?
Could you build a "green" powerplant that looks and sounds like a classic but passes today/tomrrow's EPA standards?

Let me expand for clarity. Could anyone build a 427FE Side Oiler engine (or an engine that looks like one) that meets today's EPA standards?

[Aussie Mike]

The bottom end would probably be fine with the technology that is readily available but the heads would need a serious redesign to meet the current emissions regs.

I reckon with the use of twin turbos and EFI with Propane fuel (LPG) you could build an FE that would make more power than you know what to do with and produce clean emissions. Propane is a fairly clean fuel and the twin turbos actually help with emissions because they let you run cam with less overlap and their intense exhaust heat burns off a lot of the hydrocarbon emissions. Stick a pair of cats on there as well and it'll be just daisies and baby's breath that comes out of the exhaust.

The problem with Propane is the tank required to get any kind of decent range is going to fill up your whole trunk.

Cheers

[wtm442]

In the late 60's and early 70's, the heavy hitters wowed the troops with 375 to 425 HP.

Today with much less pollution and much better gas mileage we are seeing cars with 500 to 600 HP.

I another 20 years we will see cars with 750 HP and 45 MPG on the highway. Bet on it.

[Ronbo]

While it could come to that, kit cars are a rather small percentage of cars on the road. Basically they're more like classic cars that aren't normally used as daily drivers but run in parades, shows ect. But then there are those in the legislature that think we need emissions on lawn mowers.

Big problem is everybody has to drive a SUV now (I pick on them and tell them it's a tall station wagon). For me it's more a saftey issue as half of them can barely drive a car let alone a truck.

As for a built FE, other than switching fuels I doubt it could pass without adding a $10k EFI system and another $10k in exhaust, heads, sensors ect. The EPA hasn't touched requirements for 15yrs. so this gave the auto industry time to improve performance without having to improve emissions or fuel economy. Big thing is if the ecomomy slumps like in the 70's no one will be able to afford the gas or the insurance like in the 70's. People stopped buying muscle cars and started buying Datsuns. People were selling 4yr old caddies for $500.

Now might be a good time for talking the Kirkhams or Kieth C. into getting a gas turbine engine developed with FE mounts. Then you could run it on anything from kerosine to bacon grease. Chrysler had 50 cars running them in '65.

[khansmith]

This is good stuff so far. Let me summarize results against the question posed "Could you build a "green" powerplant that looks and sounds like a classic but passes today/tomrrow's EPA standards? EX Could anyone build a 427FE Side Oiler engine (or an engine that looks like one) that meets today's EPA standards? ":

ROUSHAC: No Solution (unless you can travel back in time)
Aussie Mike: Yes w/ alt fuels, turbos & EFI
wtm442: No Solution (but believes modern engines will continue to grow hp)
Ronbo: Yes w/ expensive EFI, Exhaust, Sensors, etc (est $20K additional)

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[diegokid]

I remember people switching to propane during the 70's. I know two old farts that still run it. The exhaust is clean, power is good. Must change the carb and of course a pain to refill. Much better choice than corn though. One of these guys live in CA, he claims that when he gets his smog check they can't believe how clean it runs. You also don't get all the carbon buildup and the engine lasts much longer.

[Tom Kirkham]

With a few mods you could use E85. It appears that this will be the cheap race fuel of the future. Some big advantages to going to E85 is you can run lots of compression. You should also be able to buy it anywhere in the near future. Disadvantages are that you will need to remove all rubber from the fuel system. You will also get worse fuel mileage. Almost all the carb shops are making E85 compatible carbs now.

[WildBill3]

I know Bimmer has a hydrogen car thats pretty nice maybe some posabilities ther.And it just sounds cool to me run it on water .Leno has one seen him drive it he even switched over to gas without a hickup anybody doing hydo conversions???WB3

[Ron61]

In my latest issue of Hot Rod they have built an E-85 powered roadster and plan to drive it the full length of their yearly power tour. That should give some idea of just how well it will work as they will be going over mountains and across about all types of terrain.

Ron

[Dinobyte]

There is a guy in Wichita who is building super power out of bio-diesel. It is a turbo or supercharged motor, that is putting out 700+ hp, basically running on vegatable oil. I saw something on TV where Niel Young and Arnold (Gubanator of CA) are having their cars retro fitted with these engines.

[Power Surge]

Do you want to really want to meet EPA standards, or do you want to meet legal state inspection/smog standards? There's a BIGGGG difference.

You'll NEVER meet current EPA standards with any carb. Just won't happen. Even the best full boogie adjustable race carb (fully adjustable metering blocks) doesn't have the ability to control fueling for what it would take to meet EPA specs. Then you also have no EGR, no canister purge with a carbon box for fumes, etc, etc. How do you control NOx? How do you control the 200 rpm increment between 3400-3600 at 60% throttle where specs go out the window? You can't.

You'd need a modern fuel injection system (i.e OEM spec, not aftermarket), and you'd need to have it properly tuned, on a 5 gas setup, to meet EPA specs. Oh, and that's even if the basic engine design even let's you get close enough to EPA spec.

On the other hand, you could easily build a emmisions friendly car that meets state smog tests. Just having the most basic crude, nothing on it, carbed Cobra PROPERLY dyno tuned, should give you excellent emmisions. My brother's 331 stroked small block, with 6-71 blower and two Demon 650 blower carbs, gets 18 mpg crusing. Why? Cause I spent over 2 weeks tuning the car RIGHT. That doesn't mean it would ever pass a state smog test with that kind of setup of course (the part throttle and WOT would be WAY too rich), but you get the point.

However, back on topic.... I've seen many old muscle cars converted to propane that have zero emissions, and actually make more hp because of the octane rating. Not the most convenient fuel to run, but then again, what is other than gasoline right now?

[Slick61]

look at all the replicas that are running the modular 4.6l 32 valve V8... great power, sounds amazing, great mileage, and clean/efficient. And there are probably even more running the SOHC 4.6l mod motor. If I ever build one, that's probably what I'll power it with... pick up a '96 to '98 cobra engine (aluminum block), have it rebuilt, slap a blower on it, and WATCH OUT!

[Michael P. Wole]

Ron..I am running the power tour in my Cobra....don't see any mountains in it this year.
Little Rock,Ar-Springfield, Mo-Ames, Ia-Lincoln,Ne-Rochester,Mn-Madison, Wi. Mostly the plaines of the midwest. I am considering setting my new motor up on E85. Not a major undertaking.

[Ron61]

Michael,

I lived in the Ozarks a lot and they don't have mountains like we have here, but there are some great Cobra driving roads going into the back areas and some pretty steep climbs in places. My cousin that lives just about 80 miles South of Springfield on the Arkansas side of the line has my old Cobra as I sold it to him. What date are you supposed to be in Springfield? I could call him and he might drive up and see all the cars and go with you for a short ways. In fact if you are coming North from Little Rock on highway 65, he could meet you there as you will pass about 3 miles from his house. He lives in a small town called Omaha which is about 20 miles North of Harrison.

Ron

[khansmith]

Alright! So far it seems that there are two solutions that meet the question posed.

1.) Convert to propane: The big draw back here is the tank size and availability of LP. Cool thing is that you can run a duel system (gas and LP). Found an article here on propane conversions. Also pro is that consumption is basically the same as gas.

2.) Convert to Ethanol: I found lots of sites on this topic. Toughest thing for EFI is that since Ethanol contains only 80% the energy of gasoline (or so I read). EFI is probably best course (Even though they have e85 carbs now). Also great thing is you can burn both (one kit allows you to switch between alcohol and gas. Fuel filters have to be chnged every 500 miles. Found two sites of interest. One site is a "build" blog of a dude who converted his explorer to E85. The other is a forum on E85. Both sites are on the same domain.

[diegokid]

There are some reports coming out now that E85 doesn't run nearly as clean as claimed. It seems that there are some green house gasses that are actually worse than gasoline. I will try to find the link and post it later. Another plus for propane is engine life is greatly increased and the burn't fuel produces water.

[Aussie Mike]

Originally Posted by Slick61

look at all the replicas that are running the modular 4.6l 32 valve V8... great power, sounds amazing, great mileage, and clean/efficient. And there are probably even more running the SOHC 4.6l mod motor. If I ever build one, that's probably what I'll power it with... pick up a '96 to '98 cobra engine (aluminum block), have it rebuilt, slap a blower on it, and WATCH OUT!

Quite a few guys are running that 4.6 motor down here. Unfortunately it doesn't meet the latest emissions requirements. People are switching to the newer Aussie version which is the 5.4 bottom end with the 32 Valve heads on it. The only problem with them in a Cobra is they are a very wide motor and difficult to squeeze into the engine bay.

Cheers