427 Cobra Engine 1966

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Thanks for that link Doug. From that thread Tom Kirkham says:



I would consider Tom, certainly Nedsel, authorities on the question of which and how many Cobras came with top oilers. It is difficult to nail down the numbers, but one could be lead to believe it is more than 8 or 9. A number which has been stated on different forums for many years.

While the side oiler offers superior main bearing oiling Keith Craft himself has noted the potential failure for the top oiler block to crack at high rpm. Not all top oilers had the cross bolted mains. I'd bet most of them do not in fact. Granted 9000 rpm for a side oiler is lofty rpm indeed and subject to immediate failure at that rpm. The SOHC engine was capable of such rpm in drag racing, but certainly NOT a sustained rpm number!

The only non-crossbolted 427s I've seen was a couple odd ball irrigation motors that surfaced a few years ago over on fordFE.com. Has anyone else seen a non-crossbolted 427 FE??

[Don]

The narrative in the book mentioned below, from the author's ,George Reid ,viewpoint includes detail comments and pictures on all the BB regarding reliability, casting etc, Too lengthy to type , some very brief excerpts regarding 427:

" Undoubtedly the most desirable Ford high performance block going is the 427 because it shares nothing in common with the rest of the " FE " line up. It's high-nickel content gives it extraordinary strength "

" The earliest 427 blocks had the 390 High Performance oiling system. Ford soon learned that at high revs, the 427's # 2,3,4, and 5 main bearings could sometimes become oil starved, resulting quickly in bearing failure-or worse."

".......Ford cast an entirely new FE casting called the Side Oiler block early in 1965 where the mains receive a wealth of oil pressure thanks to oil galleries which fed the mains from the sides of the block "

Only mentioning what the author states, but the book appears to be a resource.

Previous post:

The CarTech publication " High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange " lists 20 Ford numbers from 1963 to 1968 as 427 High Performance including Side Oiler, Industrial and Marine, Chapter 11 page 94, available as a download @ $4.00.

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s..._ID=2933&DID=6

[Excaliber]

Let me reiterate, the 427, top or side oiler, is in fact a very reliable and strong motor! Side oiler is of course superior.

Gessford Machine offers a service to modify a 427 for cross bolt mains for those that did not come with it. I think the first FE to come with factory cross bolts was the 406.

Question: When were the top oiler blocks discontinued, or were they? Perhaps manufacture of the top oiler continued along with the side oiler until the demise of the FE series?

[mickmate]

I'm very fond of good FE lineage myself and have heard similar stories. I believe it was unusual for any kind of numbers to tie the FE to any particular Cobra. Having said that I have seen the CSX # stamped into an intake manifold but I don't even think that was done to the cars original motor. There is sooooo much stuff on e-bay that a friend told this guys uncle in law that this part is from a real Cobra. It's the stuff of Cobra legend if you ask me.

[CSX3183]

My 427 Cobra originally was a center oiler, 2X4 Low Riser. After spinning a bearing at Road Atlanta, I had a NASCAR High Nickle Side Oiler installed, at least that was the old wifes tale at that time.

Now I've heard rumblings that High Nickle was BS.

But, Shelby did indeed install Center Oilers, he installed what Ford sent him, it was that simple.

[Blue66]

Originally Posted by CSX3183

My 427 Cobra originally was a center oiler, 2X4 Low Riser. After spinning a bearing at Road Atlanta, I had a NASCAR High Nickle Side Oiler installed, at least that was the old wifes tale at that time.

Now I've heard rumblings that High Nickle was BS.

But, Shelby did indeed install Center Oilers, he installed what Ford sent him, it was that simple.

yup ... my old CSX#3147 had a center oiler also. I can't believe all the rumor mill crap out there

[ng8264723]

The late Mike Ulrey once said that he preferred racing top oilers. He raced CJ's in the 70's and was very sucessful. He dragged raced them and didn't think the side oiler was as strong. I disagree with him there b/c they are basically the same block with the exception of the side oil galleries. MY point is he beat the crap out of the topoilers won major races and did well. The side oiler is definately not stronger and I doubt any even a KC supermotor will tach to 9000RPM for longer than 2 minutes without blowing up
chris

[ng8264723]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me reiterate, the 427, top or side oiler, is in fact a very reliable and strong motor! Side oiler is of course superior.

The above is wrong. Also ALL 427's with the exception of the 2-3 irrigation motors were X-bolted. The blocks have the same strength PERIOD. The oiling issue is only marginally superior. Try this discussion on the FE forum and see how far you get

[Excaliber]

Try this discussion with any of the well known engine builders and see how far you get!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Try this discussion with any of the well known engine builders and see how far you get!

Where do you think all OUR info is coming from? Show me one builder that sez the top oiler's "weaker" that the S/O.

Now... If you loose oil pressure to you bottom end of your top oiler, a rod "welds" itself to the crank and you end up "windowing" the block, that's doesn't make the block weaker. I think you'll find all of the "well known engine builders" statements on top oiler inadequacy is ONLY related to oiling deficiencies..

Barry, Keith, George or Tom (maybe even Pops .. oooh, did I say that? Sorry Brent) can one of you guys chime in and get Excal straight on this??

[Excaliber]

It was Keith Craft that noted right here on CC that the top oiler block has a tendancy to crack at the main journals with high rpm.

...I bet the search function on CC is getting a work over now!

[undy]

Originally Posted by Keithc8

The problem with the 2-bolt block is not the fact that it is 2 bolt but the way ford designed the main webbing. The blocks have the oil hole from the camshaft to the mains right down the middle of the block. This is weak erea of the block. The weight of the rotating assembley and the rpms are the most important thing hear. The blocks try to split and do split down the number 2 and 4 mains which causes loss of oil pressure and bearing loss. You should have no problems with what you are doing. Like I said before we have seen these blocks split at 550 to 600 HP with rpm range in the 7000 range, these have been drag engines that do nothing but turn this rpm time and time again. Use the 2 bolts block with main studs and balance everyhting good and you will have no problems. Keith

Excal, maybe falling on my own sword on this one ... but... if the top oiler's oil galleries are the same as the non-crossbolted FEs then that oil gallery (as Keith said) would be a weak spot, as you said ... making the T/O block inherently "weaker" than the S/O block.

If I'm making the correct correlation here then, according to Keith, I'm wrong and you're right.

Dave

humble pie and search button King..

[Don]

I have used as a reference for replies, not having any ( none ) personal expertise, the book published by CarTech and written by George Reid, Los Angeles CA in 1998: High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange 221-CI to 460 CI

George's background is not indicated. In the Acknowledgment Section , George mentions the following as having provided assistance with the publication:

* Jeff Sneathen: SEMO Classic Mustang
* Sneathen Enterprises, Cape Girardeau,Missouri

" Each ( above ) of these gentleman allowed me access to one of the most extensive collections of Ford high-performance parts in the world "

* Andy Leeka, Andy's Performance Enterprises in La Verne CA

" Access to one of the most extensive warehouses of Ford performance parts around "

* Dr John Craft

" a respected Ford and NASCAR journalist and historian , he made his extensive archives available "

Not passing judgement either pro or con on the creditability of the publication, but it does appear to be one , of many, resources for detail information and history on Ford SB and BB engines. A number of the points mentioned in this Thread are included and explained in the narrative which accompanies the numerous data charts, graphics and pictures.

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/w...6&WebPage_ID=4

If the above link does not work, Car Tech has a search function by book title, which is also available by Chapter @ $4.00 per download. Big Blocks have 10 chapters , from page 80 to page 146. I bought my book at Amazon.

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/h...?CID=2&DS_ID=2

[1985 CCX]

Enjoy the car!

Replicas are worth the sum of their parts and should never be purchased as an investment. A SO is a great part of your purchase however it will not be of Cammer status anytime soon. SO still sell for 7000 - 20000 on average and probably don't hold a ton of investment potential.

Don't save the miles for the next owner, have fun driving!

[ng8264723]

He is talking about main bearing walking and inturn block splitting. The 427 SO's and TO'S have the same damn holes from the cam to the mains. The side oiler has an addn feed to the main from the side. They otherwise have the same oiling. You really have to read (excaliber) before you post. Nevermind the search function. Read Steve Christ's book and learn about the engine. Don't take someone else's word for it. In this case people misunderstood what KC meant anyway. He said a 2 bolt block doesn;t crack when studs are added. A 427 is a 4 bolt block

[Excaliber]

Wasn't me who said WHY the top oiler block had a tendency to crack, you really need to READ what was posted before you shoot your mouth off.

KC's opinion rates as high as anybody on the planet when it comes to FE's.

I'd be interested in seeing the post where KC says what you said he says, got a link?

[Excaliber]

No need to make it 'personal', it's a discussion not an argument (this aint the Lounge after all). As I recall the problem was not a 2 or 4 main bolt design, it was the position of the oil galley itself that was the problem with cracking.

Top Oiler:


Side Oiler, note the oil galley down the center of the block has been moved to the side of the block:

[ng8264723]

The problem with the 2-bolt block is not the fact that it is 2 bolt but the way ford designed the main webbing. The blocks have the oil hole from the camshaft to the mains right down the middle of the block. This is weak erea of the block[I][/i]

There you go!!!! It's right there. By virtue of the fact that ALL 27's have the same hole from the cam to the main they have that sam weakness!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Use the 2 bolts block with main studs and balance everyhting good and you will have no problems. Keith

From Keith you will have no problems with main studs. Where does he mention a 4 bolted 27 main? It's right there try to understand and reasearch the way the blocks are oiled before you go off again

[ng8264723]

The blocks have the oil hole from the camshaft to the mains right down the middle of the block. This is weak erea of the bloc
Excaliber,
I'm aware of the oil hole on the top of the cam. The weak area Keith points out is the cam to the mains. Even SO's crack here. I just sold a CO to an engine builder b/c his customers SO cracked in number 4 main to cam. I also passed on a so that cracked in that very spot 10 years ago. I have heard quite a few guys on the FE forum with SO's that cracked in the same place. All the blocks share this weakness. The little hump in the top whether drilled or not does not change the strength

[Excaliber]

It looks to me, from the pictures above, the top oiler has several 'extra' oil galley hole's from the cam bearings which the side oiler does not. Looks like the side oiler has ONE hole.

I hope Keith will way in and give us some clairification on exactly what he was saying.