60's Look Paint

[KevinM]

Let me start this by saying that I like any replica to recreate the feel of the time period it is from. I am looking for the illusion of a 1960's car without the rust, and other problems that come with the real thing. (And, in the case of a Cobra, the price.)

Because of this, I prefer a 1960's look to the paint. The modern clearcoat paints look "wrong" on a 60's car. They completely destroy the illusion for me. Even the best finished 1960's cars never had the deep "wet look" of modern paints. However, EPA rules mean that most old paint formulations aren't legal anymore.

So, my question is: What is the best paint available these days to replicate a high quality 1960's paint finish? What do the guys restoring 1960's Ferarris, etc. use?

Kevin

[Woodz428]

You can still get single stage paints from most paint places, I'd try there. If you want that original look, be sure that the prep is poor so that the paint will lift off in a few places
There are farm supply stores in this area that carry industrial enamels in varous colors, that might also be a source.

[map]

Try some of the older parts stores that mixed paint in the 60/70 they should still have shelf's full of old mixing bases in Lacquer and Acrylic enamel, I just bought 2 gallons of Guardsmen blue in Lacquer.

Comrade
Unless you live in the Communist state of California you'll have to find some Black Market Lacquer!

Comrade
Mike

[mr bruce]

http://www.paintforcars.com/acrylic_lacquer_paint.html

[Got the Bug]

Here's a route you could take. Make it look like a real barn find.

http://www.hispeedcustoms.com/IMAGES...Patina_2_0.pdf

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Let me start this by saying that I like any replica to recreate the feel of the time period it is from. I am looking for the illusion of a 1960's car without the rust, and other problems that come with the real thing. (And, in the case of a Cobra, the price.)

Because of this, I prefer a 1960's look to the paint. The modern clearcoat paints look "wrong" on a 60's car. They completely destroy the illusion for me. Even the best finished 1960's cars never had the deep "wet look" of modern paints. However, EPA rules mean that most old paint formulations aren't legal anymore.

So, my question is: What is the best paint available these days to replicate a high quality 1960's paint finish? What do the guys restoring 1960's Ferarris, etc. use?

Kevin

Modern day single stage catalyzed enamel and catalyzed polyurethane can mimic the 60's look and feel. The trick is to find someone who can lay it down without any dirt nibs as both of these are not as conducive to wet sanding like base/clear paint jobs.


Bill S.

[brettco]

You can also over-reduce the clearcoats made today to make them look more like lacqure-thinner smoother coats with more hazeback but like the post above says to do it right the paint job has to be clean because buffing dirt nibs out will make spots that are too smooth and glossy.

[RedEsprit]

You can order just about any lacquer color from www.autocolorlibrary.com. I painted my ERA in lacquer for the same reason (authenticity). You can also paint the car in a garage or shop without worrying about debris. Lacquer dries instantaneously. Takes about 5 quarts of the new lacquers to paint a cobra. If you are adding stripes or using a high metallic, you will probably want to clear coat (about 6 quarts). Don't expect this paint to be dull, however. Color sand with 1000, then 1500, then 2000 then hand rub (forget the machine) the car with a good white polishing coumpound. Show car glaze is the final step. You will be suprised what you can do with lacquer. You will also need some good thinner from autocolor library. Cheap lacquer thinner is available from your local auto paint store. Fine for primer but you'll need some better thinner for the color coats. All in all about $800-$1,000 in materials.

[KevinM]

I probably should have stated in my original post that I live in southern California. That's why I have problems getting certain kinds of paint.

I am thinking the answer may be to just send the car to another state to have it painted. I'm not sure how easy it will be to find someone who is experienced with Lacquer these days. That's why I was thinking someone who specializes in show quality restoration paint jobs might still use it on a regular basis.

Can anyone recommend a top quality painter who is experienced with Lacquer and is based in Arizona, Texas, Nevada, etc?

Thanks,

Kevin

[brettco]

If you want show quality than the new paints are the best and longest lasting.The shrinkage of lacqure products on fiberglass would a major problem and if I were going to spend $1000.00 on lacqure paint and primer anyway whats a little more for the best 2 part urethane paint available today. Paint has come a long way in the last 15 years. Show quality to me means sanded flat and polished as glossy as possible-in doing this the paint type isn't that big of a deal. I'm not sure what you want but a good shop can do anything you ask for with new urethane paints and the paint job will last 3 times longer and chip less than lacqure. The best part about lacqure was doing a nice looking job in your home garage. Hope that helps Brett

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by KevinM

I probably should have stated in my original post that I live in southern California. That's why I have problems getting certain kinds of paint.

I am thinking the answer may be to just send the car to another state to have it painted. I'm not sure how easy it will be to find someone who is experienced with Lacquer these days. That's why I was thinking someone who specializes in show quality restoration paint jobs might still use it on a regular basis.

Can anyone recommend a top quality painter who is experienced with Lacquer and is based in Arizona, Texas, Nevada, etc?

Thanks,

Kevin

Kevin,

I'll say it again as a paint shop owner with 25 years worth of different product development and useage. Forget about "Lacquer", it's an old outdated product, one which does not have the shelf life that anyone these days would want to touch. Stick with a catalyzed polyurethane based paint or new base coat clear coat systems that can be mixed and sprayed to mimic the 60's look. It's a matter of what happens to the paint jobs after they are sprayed out and cured that you do not seem to like (you want a small amount of orange peel, and a not quite deep depth mirror finish I gather from what you have posted to date). Again, it is this expectation that you need to work with and not the product being used, as a quality painter can get modern day paints to duplicate the "look and feel" of even a paint job from the 20's and 30's. I've done then all, some for show (AACA competition), some for daily drivers....Again it's the expectations of the finished product that needs to be discussed between the car owner, shop owner, and painter/finish detailer. Again I believe your choice is being lost in translation, and you have to date been steered in the wrong direction from people who are not up to date with todays product offerings and technology. These are the people you need to walk away from, not those of us who have the experience to attempt to straighten out your lack of education on this subject. Not trying to be mean, or a wise a*s, just trying to get you to realize what you have been told so far (not always on this thread but I'll bet elsewhere) is not entirely correct...............


Bill S.

[Got the Bug]

Kevin - What type of Cobra are you painting?

[KevinM]

Bill,

I am not looking for orange peel. The few original Cobras I remember seeing in the 60's had very good finishes. Much better than what Detroit was doing.

My problem is that the modern Basecoat - Clearcoat finishes have a "Wet" look that even the best 60's paint jobs didn't have. For me it's like putting bare carbon fiber on a Cobra, it's from the wrong time period and looks totally out of place.

If I can get the look of a top quality 60's paint job with modern paints and better durability, I am all for it.

Can a modern single stage paint be made to have the look of a high quality Lacquer paint job? If so, how do you do it? One problem I see here is that I have to find someone who is in practice with single stage paints. I don't want my car to be someone’s learning experience.

Thanks,

Kevin

[mr bruce]

http://www.moal.com/04_gallery/00misc/index.php

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Bill,

My problem is that the modern Basecoat - Clearcoat finishes have a "Wet" look that even the best 60's paint jobs didn't have.
Thanks,

Kevin

What you are seeing is a complete clear coat without any flattening agent mixed in. That, or you are trying to compare a different color vs what you want in a "60's color". A base clear is the only way to go as far as regulating the true final finish. Single stage paints are just that, the color and the gloss are mixed together and what comes out of the gun is what you get. Even in a controlled environment, two cars painted in a row using the same materials, the final product will be a bit different, maybe not to your eye, but to my trained one I can see it. If you have a paint code for a particular "60's" color you are interested in, I can offer you single stage enamel, mid grade, and high grade base/clear paint mixes. Each one will have it's own spray/bake/final characteristics. Will it be a 100% duplicate to the original car, again, that depends on the car and what it is made out of. Steel, aluminum, fiberglass all will have a different final appearance (even when sprayed for the same vehicle at the very same time) as they are all different base products for the paint to react to.. What you are asking to be your final product on say a fiberglass replica body vs what is seen on an original low mileage steel or aluminum bodies automobile may not happen, no matter how hard you wish it to. Again, you need to compare apples to apples and not allow others to steer you towards products that will not work for you (like the "must have" lacquer" that someone has said is what you must use). It's all a matter of finding someone in your area you feel comfortable with, showing them exactly what you are looking for in a final product, and having them be competent enough to accomplish it if at all possible.

Bill S.

PS: My shop painted 1,103 cars last year with a 99.8% CSI (customer service index) rating..............

[bbrown]

Bill,

I am fascinated by the discussion here, as I thought to get the appearance of lacquer paint you had to shoot lacquer paint. Your examples are great eyeopeners.

Would it be safe to say that a good painter can shoot a fiberglass car (Corvette) with modern paint systems that even NCRS types couldn't fault?

Thanks
Bert

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by bbrown

Bill,

I am fascinated by the discussion here, as I thought to get the appearance of lacquer paint you had to shoot lacquer paint. Your examples are great eyeopeners.

Would it be safe to say that a good painter can shoot a fiberglass car (Corvette) with modern paint systems that even NCRS types couldn't fault?

Thanks
Bert

Bert,

Some of the top flight cars are already there. A painter who knows his/her product known how to use it to their advantage.


Bill S.

[KevinM]

Bill,

Thanks, I think you hit the nail on the head.

In thinking about it, I remember we had to rub the cars out every couple of years because the paint surface would "chalk up". I suspect I am remembering the way the cars looked after a couple of years of sun exposure.

Sounds like a little over reducing or flattener would be all it would take to get to what they looked like new.

I do have one other question. How much do the low VOX reducers hurt the quality of the paint? Would it be worth sending the car to where they can use the standard reducers to have it painted? Does it make a significant difference in the quality / durability of the finish?

Thanks again for the help,

Kevin

[RedEsprit]

At the risk of acquiring "the Wrath of Bill" on this subject, I'll add one more post. No one is arguing the superiority of today's technollogically advanced paint products over lacquer and modern products are probably the right thing to use for 99% of all builders. Lacquer is not durable. It is soft, it will stain, it will chip and needs constant maintenance such as waxing and polishing. When applying, it requires sanding between coats (since it will not flow well), spraying metallics properly requires some practice and good technique. Because of the wet sanding between coats, you may well mask the car 3,4,or even 5 times before the job is done. You need to know a little about lacquer thinners, additives, etc. No production shop like Bill's who does over 1,000 cars a year would want to touch it due to the high labor costs and time involved for application and tieing up the shop. And, basically everything he says is 100% correct. However, if you want the look and feel of lacquer, there is one absolutely sure way to get it. Spray it. You may or may not be able to find someone that can make a catalized product provide "the look". If it looks right after the job, great. If it doesn't, good luck on the repaint. I am currently making an aluminum hood, doors and decklid for the ERA. When done, I will re-shoot the entire car with lacquer (changing color just for the fun of it). I would not do this if it were enamel or a hardened two stage product. Lacquer is a great "hobbyist" paint choice. Want to change colors? Set aside two or three weekends and respray, sand, and polish, polish, polish. When I was in my teens I would respray my original AC every three or four months. Just like getting a new car. I have sprayed a LOT of lacquer (probably 100 to 150 cars). In support of Bill, as soon as I finish the Cobra, I'll be spraying my Lotus Esprit. That will be done with House of Kolor catalized products for "the wet look" although I will still be using HOK clear lacquer for the top coat. So in the end, I'm certainly not saying you "must" use lacquer to get "the look". I'm simply saying that if you want the 1960s look of lacquer, and are willing to put up with some of lacquer's shortfalls, there is one sure way to get it. Spray it.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Bill,

Thanks, I think you hit the nail on the head.

In thinking about it, I remember we had to rub the cars out every couple of years because the paint surface would "chalk up". I suspect I am remembering the way the cars looked after a couple of years of sun exposure.

Sounds like a little over reducing or flattener would be all it would take to get to what they looked like new.

I do have one other question. How much do the low VOX reducers hurt the quality of the paint? Would it be worth sending the car to where they can use the standard reducers to have it painted? Does it make a significant difference in the quality / durability of the finish?

Thanks again for the help,

Kevin

Kevin,

The low VOX reducers do not hurt the quality of the finished job at all as long as they are combined with what the manufacturer calls for in combination.

R.E.,

Wrath of Bill ...As for production, yes, it is a rare occurance that I take on projects such as this due to time and labor constraints. However, we still do them on occasion.......


Bill S.