Rick Kopec's "What's Your Beef?"

[xlr8or]

Glad to see you expand your participation here Evan. You should try it more often.

Jamo that was funny stuff.

[REAL 1]

Hmmm. I seem to remember that back in the 60's Cobras on this side of the pond were referred to as Shelby Cobras also. Shelby quickly ditched any reference to AC.

Just sayin.

[razerwire]

Price used would seem to place the cars in pecking order 1. cobras from the 1960s 2 .alum shelbys new series 3. kirkham 4 . glass shelbys new series 5. superformance and era tied 6 .depends on the build. With that said it would seem that the public sees new series shelbys as real. Kirkham quality not in question. Newer AC cars all over the board?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by razerwire

5. superformance and era tied.

[razerwire]

Post said used price, went to cobra country for info, check it out. Superformance listed for 45 to 55 k, ERA from 39 to 53 k. See ERA #716-#2031-#203. Point is public view of newer shelby cobras confirmed as real cobras by how much they sell for.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by razerwire

Post said used price, went to cobra country for info, check it out. Superformance listed for 45 to 55 k, ERA from 39 to 53 k. See ERA #716-#2031-#203. Point is public view of newer shelby cobras confirmed as real cobras by how much they sell for.

An inherently flawed sampling. The truth is "the public" can't tell the difference between a Kirkham and a Factory Five.

[REAL 1]

Razor: Good point.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Razor: Good point.

Give me 12 people off the street and I'll convince them a FFR is better than a CSX. "Just look at that flimsy aluminum, nothing more than melted Coke cans, here watch me put a dent in it with one rap of my knuckles... while over here we have quality-built fiberglass -- yessirreee, it doesn't get any better than this.... just like Corvettes."


EDIT -- And I'll throw in a box of Sham-Wows to seal the deal....

[REAL 1]

Patrickt: Wow. You almost had me convinced with that sales pitch right up to the point you got to "Corvette".

No sale.

[Dan Stryffeler]

I don't think the sales pitch would get very far beyond putting a dent in someones car

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Dan Stryffeler

I don't think the sales pitch would get very far beyond putting a dent in someones car

It was going to be Evan's......

[REAL 1]

I'm usually not a violent guy. But that would have me hurting someone. That would have me at a "10" you don't want to see me at a "10".

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm usually not a violent guy. But that would have me hurting someone. That would have me at a "10" you don't want to see me at a "10".

Oh, I dunno... Jamo says you're just a big teddy bear.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I'm usually not a violent guy. But that would have me hurting someone. That would have me at a "10" you don't want to see me at a "10".

Well if I was Dudley Moore, I'd much rather see Bo Derek jogging down the beach in a bikini than Evan...

[REAL 1]

You guys apparently haven't seen me in a bikini!

[xlr8or]

Now that's just wrong. You and Evan both owe me a beer for my suffering on that mental image.

[RodKnock]

Forget the real, imagined and replica arguments, that picture ruined my thread.

I don't know who that is, but he definitely needs to do a lot of core training.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Forget the real, imagined and replica arguments, that picture ruined my thread.

I don't know who that is, but he definitely needs to do a lot of core training.

It's gone.

Sorry.

[What'saCobra?]

i seem to recall that from 1962 to about mid 1965, all 289's were mostly called AC Cobras, particularly outside of SoCal's LA basin, up until the 289 world championship and the 427. Nobody ever asked me or my friends if they were either real or genuine.

The patina (worn-out and seriously beat appearance) of an original was enough for an intelligent bloke to not even wonder about originality, let alone be interested enough to ask. The dirt cheap used price kept candybuts from applying too much lipstick beyond ugly fender mirrors and the odd trunk rack. The concept of over-restored had not even been invented for Cobras.

Team cars were particularly distained for their much abused chassis, trannys and ready-to-detonate used engines. Anyone with any brains looked for a nice clean streeter that had been kept off the tracks. Some folks tried to sell their race cars as streeters, to cover-up their track abuse.

My, how today's wantabe punters revise both history and reality to justify their latter-day johnny-come-lately choices.

There was very good reason why Shelby and his Cobras went out of business. They cars were not wanted, new or used. They didn't sell for squat, except for the very few raving lunatics that understood the drug and the odd few rich daddy's boys that wanted rather obscure bragging rights more than common sense. Simple arithmetic proved the economics wasn't sufficient to justify his big staff, location and over-head.

Far more sports were satisfied with 100HP Austin-Healeys and their ill-handling chassis, lousy brakes, crappy live-axles, inept-shocks and pill-box interiors. People flummoxed by SU carbs wouldn't even dream of setting-up a set of 4 X 2bbl Webers.

Personally, still being snake-bit, i love the whole Cobra thing, kits to Kirkhams. Even Shelby's, whoever provides the bodies/chassis. Aly or glass. Square or round-tubed.

To me, the boys from Provo have really shown us how it should be done, though not cheaply. They remain perhaps the lowest cost to manufacture a "proper" aly car, giving them a staying power that is simply unmatched, if they maintain their discipline regarding not overspending on stuff that is very hard to resist.

That said, the glass guys in SA do make very nice stuff with great entry-level prices and pretty super quality. And the secondary glass providers all make good-looking entries in the Cobra sweeps, each more idiosyncratic than the other.

But, i asked about SAAC's opinion regarding the few AC street/comp continuations, having some vestments in that liturgical issue. Are they real Cobras? Or are they only genuine Cobras? FORD seemed to think they were real.

Somewhat similarly, the Shelby-authorized McCluskey "continuations", though certainly and rather notoriously, not AC-sourced chassis, did not seem either real or genuine, at least by the State of California and many of the original owners, when they discovered the illicit con perpetrated by Mr. Shelby in those dreary days. Who would imagine that lacking a real or genuine AC chassis/body would mean such disappointment and gnashing of teeth?

So, it appears at least for those dozen or so cars, they are neither real or genuine, even though they have or at least had, Mr. Shelby's imprimatur.

Wasn't that whole ugly story also the subject of court procedures and heavy-handed press statements from SA regarding the relative provenance and value of AC chassis/body originality, among other hysterical rantings and accusations from SoCal?

So, i merely ask, are the AC continuations, so very few at that, real Cobras in SAAC's eyes? If so, why are they different, even though they have never been touched by the Shelby magic wand?

Authorized by FORD, by the way.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

i seem to recall that from 1962 to about mid 1965, all 289's were mostly called AC Cobras, particularly outside of SoCal's LA basin, up until the 289 world championship and the 427. Nobody ever asked me or my friends if they were either real or genuine.

The patina (worn-out and seriously beat appearance) of an original was enough for an intelligent bloke to not even wonder about originality, let alone be interested enough to ask. The dirt cheap used price kept candybuts from applying too much lipstick beyond ugly fender mirrors and the odd trunk rack. The concept of over-restored had not even been invented for Cobras.

Team cars were particularly distained for their much abused chassis, trannys and ready-to-detonate used engines. Anyone with any brains looked for a nice clean streeter that had been kept off the tracks. Some folks tried to sell their race cars as streeters, to cover-up their track abuse.

My, how today's wantabe punters revise both history and reality to justify their latter-day johnny-come-lately choices.

There was very good reason why Shelby and his Cobras went out of business. They cars were not wanted, new or used. They didn't sell for squat, except for the very few raving lunatics that understood the drug and the odd few rich daddy's boys that wanted rather obscure bragging rights more than common sense. Simple arithmetic proved the economics wasn't sufficient to justify his big staff, location and over-head.

Far more sports were satisfied with 100HP Austin-Healeys and their ill-handling chassis, lousy brakes, crappy live-axles, inept-shocks and pill-box interiors. People flummoxed by SU carbs wouldn't even dream of setting-up a set of 4 X 2bbl Webers.

Personally, still being snake-bit, i love the whole Cobra thing, kits to Kirkhams. Even Shelby's, whoever provides the bodies/chassis. Aly or glass. Square or round-tubed.

To me, the boys from Provo have really shown us how it should be done, though not cheaply. They remain perhaps the lowest cost to manufacture a "proper" aly car, giving them a staying power that is simply unmatched, if they maintain their discipline regarding not overspending on stuff that is very hard to resist.

That said, the glass guys in SA do make very nice stuff with great entry-level prices and pretty super quality. And the secondary glass providers all make good-looking entries in the Cobra sweeps, each more idiosyncratic than the other.

But, i asked about SAAC's opinion regarding the few AC street/comp continuations, having some vestments in that liturgical issue. Are they real Cobras? Or are they only genuine Cobras? FORD seemed to think they were real.

Somewhat similarly, the Shelby-authorized McCluskey "continuations", though certainly and rather notoriously, not AC-sourced chassis, did not seem either real or genuine, at least by the State of California and many of the original owners, when they discovered the illicit con perpetrated by Mr. Shelby in those dreary days. Who would imagine that lacking a real or genuine AC chassis/body would mean such disappointment and gnashing of teeth?

So, it appears at least for those dozen or so cars, they are neither real or genuine, even though they have or at least had, Mr. Shelby's imprimatur.

Wasn't that whole ugly story also the subject of court procedures and heavy-handed press statements from SA regarding the relative provenance and value of AC chassis/body originality, among other hysterical rantings and accusations from SoCal?

So, i merely ask, are the AC continuations, so very few at that, real Cobras in SAAC's eyes? If so, why are they different, even though they have never been touched by the Shelby magic wand?

Authorized by FORD, by the way.

Here's another thing to add to the above mix....

There were two CSX 427s that NEVER saw Shelby and stayed in the UK (and Europe), but yet are just as legit to carry a CSX VIN and be called "Shelby Cobras". So how could those cars be classified as Cobras and yet the continuation Angliss AC built Cobras have to question their classification.

And also, for those who consider modern CSX cars "replicas", do you also consider the 80s AC Cobras and 90s AC continuation CSX 3000 cars replicas?