The good, the bad and the ugly from Pocono

[klayfish]

Well, here's my report from the Saturday Pocono event run by PDA.

I was the only Cobra running that day. Another Cobra, owned by Stan Brown, came to hang out for a bit, but did not run. The field was 90% composed of just 5 different groups...'Vettes, BMWs, Porsches, Ferraris and Vipers.

To sum it up, my day was then then

I was so anxious to try out my brand new 3 link rear FFR set up along with my new 3.73 gears. We also put in a 160 degree thermostat to help cool the car, a new axle, all new bearings, tuned the carb, etc...I was really excited to give it a go. I ran with the white run group. After our first 2 yellow flag laps to get oriented (we were running the double infield course, 3.3 miles long), I got on it hard. The car felt SO good. The new gears woke my little underpowered motor up, and the 3 link is awesome!! My car was planted firmly. Now, remember, I'm on street tires. While I won't lie and say I was blowing by cars on Hoosiers, I was keeping up with everyone. I had passed a Viper and was reeling in another car. That was pure . I was finding good lines and getting a real feel for my new set up. The car felt completely different than in July.

Then, about half way through the first session, I watched my water temp gauge start climbing. 190...200...210... oh sh!t!!!!!! I backed off and pulled off the course (the checkered flag waived anyway by then). Pulled into my garage and check under the car. Nothing is leaking, nothing broken. But I definitely pushed coolant out the overflow. Son of a.... Simple fact of the matter is I was pushing the car too hard for my stock radiator to keep up. My mechanic had a feeling this may happen, and that's why we put the 160 thermostat in. But since the car felt SO SO SO good and I was pushing it hard, those long straights just murdered the radiator.

So I gotta let it cool enought to take off the cap and check to see if I need to add anything. At that point, I was just going to top it off and head home, because what's the point of running if I have to go out there like a wounded duck? All the while, many people, all with the best of intentions and very politely, told me that I should get an aluminum radiator. I was very polite in response to them, as I know they want to help me. But as frustrated as I was, I just didn't want to talk to anyone.

By time the car cooled off enough to take the cap off, it was nearly time for my run group to go out again. The car actually hadn't spit too much out. So, after discussing it with the wife, I decided to head back on the track. I topped it off with water and went back out. I decided that I would run fairly hard through the corners (just leave it in 4th gear, instead of shifting to 3rd to get off the corners real hard) and just cruise slowly down the straights. At least that would get me seat time, and I could still take the corners hard. So, there I was shifting at 2500 rpm into 5th on the straights and letting people by. Kind of demoralizing, but it was redemption knowing that when I let them by on the straights, I would keep right with them through the road course. This strategy kept my water temp down around 190. But damn, I so badly wanted to get on it again, I was having such a good time before I overheated.

We started 30 minutes late, then had a car drop oil all over the track. So I decided this would be my last session. It was 4:00 by time we got to my third session of track time. Same strategy as before, to keep the temps down. Run is going well, having a good time. Going down the front straight, there was an early '90s 'Vette ZR-1 two cars ahead. As we approached the end of the straight, where we had to make a right onto the infield, I saw his brake lights come on just as he started turning. I know this is a cardnal sin. Instantly I thought...he overcooked it, he ain't gonna make it. On the brakes onto a corner is a bad thing and sure enough he started turning sideways. I immediately back off and start waiving my arm in the air to warn cars behind me. The car in front of me jams his brakes and goes left (as if going towards turn 3). The ZR-1 only turned 90 degrees sideways, so he comes to a stop completely sideways right in the middle of the track. So that avenue is blocked. The car in front of me went left on the track. Now my choices are few and none. Thankfully, as this was happening, I was on the brakes hard watching where they were going. I was able to bring my car to a stop just between the 'Vette and the car in front of me. It probably looked a lot less dramatic from a spectators point of view, but it certainly got my attention. For just that spit second, the track was blocked, and my escape road was partially blocked too.

Finished that session with no further incidents and headed home, both with a new amount of confidence knowing I had a well set up car and could keep up with cars running race tires, and complete frustration knowing that I left ALOT on the table and felt like I was just limping it around.

I have little doubt my problem is with the radiator. I have no problems on the street or even autocross. But pushing that hard was just too much for it. Luckily this was my last track event of the year, because I don't have enough money right now to get the aluminum radiator. I need a second job, or a sponsor, or the lottery, or SOMETHING.

Best of luck to the Club Cranky crew at the Glen. Keep the shiny side up, and remember, you don't start drinking until AFTER you're done running. Although I hear Cranky turns some mean laps half sauced up.

Steve

[John McMahon]

Steve,

Glad you survived. Remember...this is all typical of track events, they don't always go smoothly.

210 is not unrealistic running on a hot day. I normally run about that on a good b*tchslapping session.

I would rethink the thermostat change. 180 is the normal operating temps of most engines. I would definitely go the route of an aluminum radiator and also use Red Line's Water Wetter, that will bring the temps down a bit too. What type of fans are you running on the car as well, pushers or pullers, single or dual?

What were your oil temps? Do you run an oil cooler?

I think we are all ready for the Glen, just got done watching Tony Stewart win the race there (boo!!!!!!)

PS - I got your check, thanks. Should have the Ts by the end of the week hopefully.

[klayfish]

John,
I'll do my best to answer, but keep in mind I'm not much of a mechanic.

The 160 thermostat was put in because my mechanic knows I'm hard on the car and was aware that my motor got hot last time at Pocono.

Does that Water Wetter really work? I was thinking about using some of that stuff.

If my temp had stayed at 210, I think I'd have been OK. But it continued to push past that, and I quickly brought it in before it got high enough to cook the motor. I pushed coolant out the overflow, so it definitely got too hot. And I was definitely b*tchslapping it, and she liked it!

My car doesn't have an oil temp gauge or oil cooler. Only a pressure gauge. The pressure was fine. But I'll definitely give it an oil change (which sucks because my oil was changed 2 days before going to Pocono). I'll probably have to get a temp gauge. A very nice guy there (who took my garage when I left) was running a race prepared '68 'Vette. He showed me his Griffin aluminum radiator, which had an integral oil cooler. That looked like a nice set up.

My car has one huge fan on the radiator. I guess it would be called a "puller". It blows air towards the back of the car, towards the motor. It is wired to the ignition, and therefore runs as soon as you turn the key. It was that way when I got the car, and we haven't changed it yet.

But like I said, before it overheated, it was really running well. So I've got a lot to look forward to for next year.

Strangely enough, I ran like crap at yesterdays' autocross. The car just felt so different, and I had a tough time mastering the course. Oh well, I had fun sliding around.

My wife is a big Joe Gibbs racing fan, so she was happy as a pig in sh*t yesterday.

Steve

[John McMahon]

Steve,

I don't think there's a need to change the oil after one event.

The fan sounds fine. Definteliy upgrade to a Griffin or Howe aluminum radiator, they really dissipate the heat much quicker.
YES...the Water Wetter DOES work! Good for 10 to 20 degress in some cases, but slapping the car will still keep the temps up. Keep a mix of 33% anti freeze to water in the radiator.

You defintely need to add an override switch for your fan. That way you can turn it on when you want. By the time the 'stat activates it, its already climbing. I warm my car up a few laps, once the temp is up to 180, I turn on the fan manually.

Most small blocks are border line for their need for an oil cooler. An oil temp guage is a MUST. Then take it from there to see if when you run the oil gets hot.

A road race oil pan and/or Accusump pre oiler are preferred as well when racing. It gets expensive, but these upgrades will help protect your engine from failures.

In regards to your 3 link...stay in touch with Terry Shank (RW+B #16 FFR from Pocono), he is just starting to use his 3 link and will gain a lot of knowledge on the setup from the Glen event.

[DanElam]

1. 210F is warm, but not unreasonable. If it gets above that I would be worried, but I wouldn't be worried if it stays there.

2. Water Wetter works. No brainer.

3. Don't run anti-freeze. As you may remember from chemistry class, impurities lower the boiling point of water and alcohol in anti-freeze boiler much sooner. Anti-freeze is just to keep the water from freezing. To avoid boiling, run straight water. (So why does water wetter work, you ask? Smart cookie. Water wetter does lower the boiling point since it is an impurity, but it uses larger molecules to carry more heat away from the engine. The net result is that it still boils sooner, but it keeps the car cooler in the first place.)

[John McMahon]

Dan,

Steves car is primarily a street car and that's why I suggest the 33% antifreeze. All true race cars run pure water and Water Wetter.

[klayfish]

Thanks for the responses guys.

As John said, my car is primarily a street/autocross car. I don't have the resources to buy a trailer, etc...so I can attend more open track days. But I hope to make 5 or so next year, including the Glen.

I wasn't too worried about 210, but it was pushing above that, and that's when I thought it wise to pull into the pits. Luckily, the checkered flag was just starting to waive as I pulled in, so I really didn't miss too much. Do you guys push out the overflow often?

My car will probably never see temps below freezing, so maybe I should change to either straight water, or just a little anti-freeze.

John, you don't think my oil took a beating with the climbing temps. Since I don't have the temp gauge, I have no way of knowing how hot it was.

I will be very interested to talk to Terry about how he does with the 3 link. I was very, very impressed with it in my initial drives. The car felt vastly different than in July. The rear felt well planted on Saturday, where in July, when pushed, the rear "wagged" a little going into corners.

Steve

[DanElam]

For some cars, I just switch to anti-freeze when it gets cold. I did put anti-freeze in the Cobra when we trailered it cross-country, but drained it when we got out of the cold winter mountains.

On the oil, I would just suggest checking it. A 210F water temp shouldn't break down the oil. We had been running various synthetics and changing them every race since we were losing a little oil pick-up, but we have since then realized that even with the hot race temps we just aren't damaging the oil. Now we run straight 30W and change it every couple of weekends. Our typical NASA race weekend usually consists of about twelve hard 30 minute sessions and the oil seems to be holding up just fine. We do overfill the car slightly with oil in order to help solve the pick-up issue and it has been fine.

The 3-link is a HUGE help, especially if you are learning on this car. It isn't faster, but it makes the car much more predictable so that you can right-foot steer. Suffice it to say that I believe that if FFR had the 3-link on the original spec racer, it wouldn't have scared so many people. The original spec racer was one of the hardest cars I have ever learned to drive.

Sounds like your car is just fine! Glad you had fun!

-Dan

[klayfish]

Thanks for the advice Dan. I think the car is fine like you said. The motor is running just fine. But I so badly wished it would have kept cool so I could keep running it. I'll take a look at the oil to make sure it looks alright, and leave it be if it does.

I think you're right that the 3 link doesn't increase the speed of the car. But what it does do is increase the confidence of the driver, which allowed me to take the corners faster. Why was the original spec racer so hard to drive? Did they have handling problems?

Steve

[DanElam]

Originally posted by klayfish
I think you're right that the 3 link doesn't increase the speed of the car. But what it does do is increase the confidence of the driver, which allowed me to take the corners faster. Why was the original spec racer so hard to drive? Did they have handling problems?

Steve

Right. The 3-link gives you warning that the rear end will come around. That way you can decide to continue with the right foot and spin, or lift a bit and continue gently through the corner. :-)

The original suspension didn't do that. It gave very little warning and would just snap around. When the car is twitchy like that you don't want to push it to the edge. Great drivers like Bryan Dobyns and Chris Cobetto are used to driving on the edge so it didn't affect them, but mortals like myself benefit from the feedback loop in order to get closer to 10/10.

Some of the people who drove the early cars spent a fair amount of time spinning them and I think some got scared. The cars work fine, but I really think the 3-link lets you learn the limits faster and really applaud FFR for making them a base part of the kit.

[RACER X #99]

Steve,
I agree with Dan, dump the antifreeze until winter storage. You will run cooler with just water and perhaps a little cooler with water wetter.

RD

[Bob In Ct]

Hey Kids:
Not to be a smart ass but if Dan had really taken that Chemistry course he spoke of he would know that antifreeze lowers the freezing point of water and raises the boiling point! It's not up for debate, it's fact! A 50% mixture of Prestone and water boils at 265 degrees F. It will freeze at about -40 degrees.

As far as putting in a thermostat with a lower temperature setting, it won't help. You're over-heating because the engine is producing heat faster than the radiator can get rid of it. The thermostat has nothing to do with it. If you removed it altogether it would still overheat.

Most race cars do not run antifreeze because it's not allowed. Antifreeze on the racetrack is far more slippery than water. I would run at least 40% antifreeze since it raises the boiling point of your coolant, lubricates the water pump and prevents corrosion.

You might also consider checking your air/fuel mixture. Too lean a mixture can contribute to overheating.

Bob

[DanElam]

Ok. I oversimplified.

I should have been talking about thermal transfer properties of the coolant instead of boiling and freezing points. Sorry. Bob does, correctly, point out that the freezing points lowers and the boiling points raises if you have enough ethylene glycol (C2H6O2) in your mix. (No, I can't tell you what the ratios are.)

However, as a coolant, the issues are the correct. Water is better at carrying heat than anti-freeze. (For that you can go back to the chemistry books and read. H2O can provide greater thermal agitation of its molecules than ethylene glycol.) Keep in mind that the system isn't exact when it comes to ratios: pressure plays a key part in the boiling points. I think a normal system is about 14psi.

Soooo..... What this all means is that water will carry more heat away, but will boil away sooner than if you have anti-freeze in the coolant. Anti-freeze also has rust inhibitors and other good things, but the real advantage is that it is hard to boil out of your radiator and leave you stranded. Manufacturers compensate by by putting bigger radiators on the cars to move more heat. When you run the car hard, you may exceed the natural/normal ability of the radiator to perform thermal transfer when using anti-freeze. To improve the thermal transfer for both your engine and the radiator, you reduce the anti-freeze (which means more water which has a higher thermal transfer property than the ethylene glycol). Presto! You get a cooler engine.



This physics major shall consider himself properly chastisted and work to refrain from simple answers in the future.


:-)

[klayfish]

Wow, thanks professors, great discussion. I knew I should have paid attention in those high school and college chemistry classes.

We knew the lower thermostat wouldn't change the boiling point, the "hope" was that it would open sooner and allow the motor to run longer before overheating. He told me right off the bat that my radiator was probably not sufficient for open track time, but figured the thermostat was cheap, and it couldn't hurt. No doubt I need the aluminum radiator. That also will take some more weight off the car.

Now, another point of debate, since I don't know much about this? Should I get an aluminum radiator with an "integral" oil cooler, or get a seperate oil cooling unit? Keep in mind I won't be open tracking the car more than 4-5 times per year.

Steve

[Roscoe]

Steve,
I would suggest separate components. I've never been of the 'home entertainment center' school. If you buy a combo and one goes....well....

Look at the Griffin or Howe radiators. They can build it with the outlets of your choice, top filler removed, etc.

I've got the Griffin NASCAR radiator, 19 x 26, and it works just fine.

Roscoe