Single hoop Cobras banned from the tracks

[RACER X #99]

This could happen at every open track/ drivers school very soon.
Already next year at the Glen with Rochester Shelby Club. Banned:all Cobras with a single hoop rollbar.
If you want to continue to do open track you better start thinking about adding a better rollbar or you may be relegated to the show scene and only dreaming of track time.

Last chance this year at the Glen with a single hoop will be Oct.4,5,6 with PDA
You can find them at www.imp-auto.com

If you wait till next year you may not get on the track.


You have been warned, Cranky

[klayfish]

Cranky,
PDA hasn't changed their rules yet, have they? I've only got a single bar. Hey, I don't carry a passenger on the track. If I did, it would either be Gary Coleman (what you talkin' 'bout, Steve?) or someone who could duck REALLY fast.

I was saving my $$$ for an aluminum radiator, I can't afford another roll bar. Good grief, I may just have to trade my car in for a spec racer. I should have chosen a cheaper hobby. Ugh.

Steve

[mr bruce]

it's about time, I'd hate to see my pals get kilt. Big sale coming up on Coupes at Bruce Enginerring.

[John McMahon]

Steve,

The problem is the cost of the insurance rider these events that they need to pay for.

Formerly they could get $5 million of coverage for a certain premium. That premium now covers $2 of coverage.


Bruce,

Let's build a 'track only' Daytona (or Cheeter) for pennies Dude. Full cage, snotty SB, open pipes......no frills.

JM
Let's build a

[klayfish]

John,
Me of all people can certainly understand the insurance issues, and have no arguments about it. But now it really leaves me seriously wondering. I want to hear some opinions from Club Cranky and other racers.

I love open tracking, and autocrossing. I have spent a lot of money upgrading my FFR to go racing. It was more of a "waxer" car when I got it, and I'm turning it into a track car.

Now, hearing this, I'm finding it will take more and more to upgrade the car for racing. Aluminum radiator, upgraded brakes, more hp out of the motor, coil overs, etc....

Unfortunately, money is a big issue for me. I can afford my car and a few open track events, but can't go crazy. I'm starting to think maybe I should trade my car for a purpose built spec racer type. At the same time, I also like Sunday cruising and taking rides with the wife, so I don't want a through and through race car. I want something street legal and with a nice looking paint job. I like Terry's car (I have no clue how much he spent on that car).

Decsions, decsions....can I have my cake and eat it too?

Steve

[Mike Braddock]

Cranky,

Do you know if that means we have to go to a full width bar or would two single hoops suffice, ie an additional hoop for the passenger? Thanks.

Mike

[RACER X #99]

Mike,
The people at Rochester Shelby are really looking for something like the FFR spec racer rollcage. I think side crash protection is what thay are looking at as safe, along with the full width rollbar. I will be installing side bars on my track turd but I rarely drive on the street.
As my first post said this COULD happen at all tracks but better to check with the group you plan to run with.

Cranky

[RACER X #99]

Steve,
At Watkins Glen the Instructors ride in the car with the student . We don't do the lead follow with first timers. If you never ran the Glen you do need in car instructions. This track is way too fast to go out alone if you are not experienced. Looks like I may be an unemployed instructor next year.

Perhaps you should contact FFR for one of their econo racers?

Cranky

[DanElam]

Most of the 'hoop' roll-bars don't offer enough protection to safe in a roll-over. A lot of the ones I see on the street don't have enough bracing to even stand up if you really turn the car over.

I have sent a note to the imp-auto folks about playing instructor with them for the Watkins Glen event. But I am not going to get into the car as an instructor unless I have at least the same protection as the driver. In any case, if I don't feel safe, I am just not going. Period. Safety just has to come first. If I get hurt instructing in a car without adequate protection, there is no way that my wife is going to let me instruct any more. She might even stop me from racing for showing such poor judgement as to be in the car.

Having done lead-follow with Cobra guys in the past, I am not sure I agree with Cranky's assessment that you can't do lead-follow at the Glen. I agree that lead-follow is a poor substitute for an instructor, but I think it can be safely. You don't have to go fast to learn how to drive. In fact, if my students are itching to drive fast, I know they are going to be slow learners.

Even though I think lead-follow can work, I think the responsibility lies with the instructors. Last year I was doing a lead-follow session for a Cobra at VIR for Speedtrial. We took it easy: I let him go fast in the safe places and made him artificially slow in the more dangerous places. There was another instructor leading another Cobra and he took things too hot, the student tried to follow, and a crane had to be used to put the (pieces) back into the guy's trailer. (The car is back on the road.) We assume the students don't know any better. This was the instructor's fault.

Finally, on the issue of costs.... First, I did some research on what you guys are paying for these time trials and I can see how it eats into your budgets. When we race, it is basically just $175 or so for the whole weekend. That is normal SCCA or NASA pricing. You guys spend a lot of time to drive without actually getting to race. Second, don't get caught up on saying 'I need this'. You don't need more horsepower. You do need to be safe. Always do the safety things first and worry about the performance issues second. You can't be choosing between a roll-bar to save your life and an extra 40HP. For performance, there will always be someone with more money than you have and you will make yourself crazy and broke if you think you have to spend like someone else does.

One thing we like about running the FFR Spec Racer is that it is safe and pretty inexpensive. The cars are about the same price as a competition Pro RX-7 and have comparable times. But I get to drive my car on the street, look/sound a whole lot better, and my costs are _much_ less to operate. FFR has done a nice job making things cheap from a maintenance perspective. We could certainly get more performance out of the cars, but costs would go up. My racing budget is way below even the guys running GT-Pinto --- and the GT-Pinto guys don't have people hanging around them to take a picture!

My $0.03.

[coyled]

Whe you guys are in a cobra, what communication method do you use? In mine, with the street pipes, you can't here anything. The 2 instructors in nasa a few years ago that rode with me could not do much while we were in the car. Gordon Levy rode with me once and used hand signals to slow, change lines, turn in and accelerate. I do like following somebody to learn the proper line and turn in. Thoughts? scott

[RACER X #99]

Scott,
Some of the first timers on the track have 500 plus hp and 0 hrs. experience. I think they need in car instructions even if it is only hand signals. My car always has open pipes and I have never heard anybody while on the track. I learned what little I did learn from hand signals. Better than lead follow at least with first timers.

Cranky

[DanElam]

Most of instructors use a motorcycle intercom that slides under your helmet. I use this when I take passengers in the Cobra (on the track) or when I instruct in an open car. I use it a lot in regular cars too. They are less than $100 and work pretty well.

I have done open top communication a handful of times without the intercom. In those situations, you and the instructor should review hand signals. I use left, right, brake, modulate throttle, throttle, and caution (yellow, red, black flag). Another instructor taught me to use these and now I usually use them even when I have the intercom. In many ways, the visual cues help reinforce what I am saying on the intercom.

Of course, every once in a while I get some idiot student who won't listen. I once had a south american rally car driver. He had terrific car control, but kept overdriving the yellows. Sigh. We had to come in for an attitude adjustment.

-Dan

[John McMahon]

Dan,

These events are not just strictly Cobras, so it may be difficult to do a 'lead-follow' if the leader is not driving in a Cobra. Cobras go a lot deeper into the corners at the Glen than other cars. Its a different line entirely.

[mr bruce]

That F5 spec semi cage ain't the safest either. a car can jump and be rite in your lap. Full cage is the way to go. One good shunt and the SCCA will ban open cars. Get a Coupe

[DanElam]

Originally posted by John McMahon
These events are not just strictly Cobras, so it may be difficult to do a 'lead-follow' if the leader is not driving in a Cobra. Cobras go a lot deeper into the corners at the Glen than other cars. Its a different line entirely.

John, I haven't run with these guys so I don't know all the details. Most schools that use lead-follow try to match up some similar performance aspects of the car. Certainly I can't take my Viper out and expect a poor student in a MGB to be able to follow my line. On the other hand, I can slow down and follow his line.

If you have a stock Mustang or something else with a solid rear end and decent acceleration, an instructor ought to be able to outdrive a beginner lead-follow student. Obviously the Cobra will out accelerate them on the straights, but that isn't skill. Once the student can keep up with the instructor in the weaker car, I would suggest that they probably are safe enough to drive on their own and use the instructor to fine tune line and technique. I promise that I can take my wife's pink (!!!) RX-7 and put it through some corners that a beginner in a Cobra has no hope of playing in. Especially for braking. That is usually the last thing we teach since it is the hardest to learn. I have a little bit of difficulty believing that the beginner students are going to be able to do 10/10ths in braking and get a line that I can't show them. Most of the Cobras still have street pads and a good BMW with good pads can do wonders with braking. (But yes, my Cobra outbrakes almost anything on the track except for the stock cars and the Lotus 7s.)

As for the FFR roll-bar, it is a matter of personal preference. There is a 10"x10" square (my head) that is not protected if a car comes up and over my car. I have seen a car come up and over in a horizontal fashion that could hit the driver like that, but I will agree that it is mechanically possible. Roll-overs and side impacts are far more likely. On that score, I have to give the second generation FFR Spec Racers high marks: the roll-bar is integrated into the frame so that the frame provides additional energy disappation and support. Is it the best I have seen? No, but it is darn good.

One of the guys who wanted to run the spec series was told by his wife that he couldn't run in a car without a full cage. He put a full cage on his spec racer. Then she heard about Lauda getting killed when a piece of something went through his eye-ball socket in an open top car. So she wouldn't let him drive his brand new spec racer. He drives a little car that has a bolt-on convertible top. Is it safer? Of course not. It isn't a tube frame race car. But his wife thinks it is, the Cobra is gone, and he races the little Japanese car.

There is talk that _new_ convertibles will be banned in SCCA, but just in certain classes like GT-1. I have already clarified with the SCCA that all Cobras will be grandfathered - including new ones yet to be built. The scenario described of a 'car in your lap' is just incredibly rare.

For me, I also drive the car on the street. A full cage just doesn't, um, appeal to my aeshetic sense of beauty (UGLY! Damn Ugly! There I said it!) and I decided to go with the half cage. But a full cage would help protect those very rare accidents.

I like the Coupes, but they don't have a spec series for those, meaning I would have to run GT-1 and be at a big disadvantage budget-wise. This way I can run GT-1, drive on the street, and get to race with the NASA series for cheap $$$$. For me, I like the wheel to wheel racing and am not interested in just a track car. I have other cars if I just want something to drive fast on the track when I play instructor. The Cobra is my race car.

I think it is just personal preference!

:-)

[RACER X #99]

Dan,
I got the motorcycle communucators that you are talking about, they don't work in a car with open headers. Cobra or otherwise.

Cranky

[DanElam]

Originally posted by RACER X #99
I got the motorcycle communucators that you are talking about, they don't work in a car with open headers. Cobra or otherwise.

Hmm. Are you using open helmets or enclosed helmets with face masks? I have used with cars around 100db and have always managed to make them work by adjusting the mikes. Maybe you guys are getting higher sounds than that? We typically have a 103db limit and I can't think of a car that I would have instructed in that was that loud.

[klayfish]

Thanks for the responses to my question guys.

Cranky, you've got a good point about instructors at Watkins Glen. I'll take your word for it that it is too fast for newbies to run without an instructor. If I go, I'd want an instructor with me, and I wouldn't ask them to get in the car w/out a roll bar.

Before I say this, let's NOT start another argument about open track days vs. "real" wheel to wheel racing. Dan, eventually I do want to try NASA racing. But probably not with the Cobra. If I do wheel to wheel racing, I'd probably by an old MR2 and use that. It would be a much easier pill to swallow if a had a minor race incident with the MR2 than the Cobra. I'm talking about making my Cobra into the best open track/autox car it can be. I have no idea what a well built FFR spec racer costs. How hard it is to make it also suitable for street use?

Steve

[DanElam]

Originally posted by klayfish
Before I say this, let's NOT start another argument about open track days vs. "real" wheel to wheel racing. Dan, eventually I do want to try NASA racing. But probably not with the Cobra. If I do wheel to wheel racing, I'd probably by an old MR2 and use that. It would be a much easier pill to swallow if a had a minor race incident with the MR2 than the Cobra. I'm talking about making my Cobra into the best open track/autox car it can be. I have no idea what a well built FFR spec racer costs. How hard it is to make it also suitable for street use?

lol! I wasn't trying to start an argument!

Well, you probably won't use an MR2. But that is only because you will end up doing a lot of research and decided that MR2s cost too much money in comparison to other cars, no one really races them (for may of the same reasons), and the lift throttle oversteer makes these wonderful cars a pain on the track. I love the cars. I almost got one for my wife to play with.

For any car you race, you have to assume that you will have some problems. That being said, NASA-VA has an extremely good track record. We just don't allow rubbing or anything dangerous to the cars. It is run under Vintage 13-13 rules, but the effect has been basically the same. SCCA allows a lot more rubbing and the only problems I have had have come from SCCA races. If you want a car for the street and to race, you would probably have to limit yourself to NASA.

Keep in mind that in the Northeast, COM is running the series instead of NASA. COM is time trials, so you have almost almost no worries about hurting your car. (Most damage comes from another car. Most tracks have big run off for when you spin - you will spin) and usually all you worry about is losing the cheap air dam).

As for cheap spec racers being street legal, I think Gary has their car for sale for $26K. This car has been used (and won) for both NASA races and autox. It has a full cage and powersteering. I am not sure if that car is street legal, but I think it is.

Our cost was around $30K which included the full size windshield (removable) and all the tuning stuff on the suspension. Bryan Dobyns built ours and both his cars and our car are all street legal. We just added $2 turn signals and made sure the headlights work. We finally broke down and added a sticker for left and right on the turn signal, but I am not sure why. ;-)

In short, making a street legal spec racer is a cinch. But you probably can't have a real show car and a race car, although we have certainly tried to do both with ours. Here are a few pics of our car on display in between races:

http://www.elams.org/events/2002/AII...mbs/Page1.html

http://www.elams.org/Events/2002/New...mbs/Page1.html

http://www.elams.org/events/2002/Sup...mbs/Page1.html

The car has been used for a lot of model and photography web sites as picked up in some publications. The graphics have a lot to do with it (and we do have to do minor repairs there.) But we do have to touch up the rubber and rock dings from the track in between races.

[klayfish]

Dan,
Thanks for the info. Lift throttle oversteer in an MR2? Never heard of it. I just never lifted the throttle . Hey, with only 112 hp, lifting is a bad thing. You're right, they are VERY prone to that. I owned two '86s and loved them on the street and autox, but never open tracked them.

I will do more research into the local NASA chapter here. I haven't even considered it until recently, so I don't know anything about it.

One thing I really liked about PDA was that passing was only allowed in certain areas, with point bys. That way I knew someone was passing me, or the person I was passing knew I was there. I expect to have spins. I just don't have the $$$ to have an incident, then do an interview in my best southern accent and say "Rubbin's racin'".

Your car looks great. I don't go to shows to win a trophy. Hell, I never hang out until the end. Given a choice between going racing or to a show, well, it wouldn't even be a "choice". I just like to go to a cruise here and there and hang out. I find it relaxing from time to time.

Since I'm done open track events for this season, I'm in no major rush. I'll start looking into the costs of spec racers and making them street legal. Then compare that to what I already have in my car and how much further I have to go. I really like my car.

Steve