Revolver question

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
I shot a 686 smith, good gun.
Mostly 38 specials as that would put a small group every time
then for fun load it with hot 357 mag rounds.
Perry.

[ken swart]

Get a Smith and Wesson, and invest in an action job by a revolver smith.
Have him round off and polish the front of the trigger, so you can get a smooth straight pull with the first knuckle. And don't forget your ball and dummy drills.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by ken swart

Get a Smith and Wesson, and invest in an action job by a revolver smith.
Have him round off and polish the front of the trigger, so you can get a smooth straight pull with the first knuckle. And don't forget your ball and dummy drills.

To each his own and every shooter has different needs but the only time that I'd have a shooter use the first knuckle, or any knuckle for that matter, is if the shooter was to weak to press the trigger with the first digit. If all of your work is up close and personal then whatever; but anything past about 5 yards, or requiring precision, should be handled by pressing the trigger directly to the rear in as straight a manner as possible. Something that is not physically possible with trigger all the way in to the first knuckle. Any time too much finger is put through the trigger guard you stand a good chance of imparting a rotational movement to the gun during the press which can result in shots pulled off center. Not to mention your own finger getting in the way of the press as it wraps around the trigger.

Steve

[ken swart]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

To each his own and every shooter has different needs but the only time that I'd have a shooter use the first knuckle, or any knuckle for that matter, is if the shooter was to weak to press the trigger with the first digit. If all of your work is up close and personal then whatever; but anything past about 5 yards, or requiring precision, should be handled by pressing the trigger directly to the rear in as straight a manner as possible. Something that is not physically possible with trigger all the way in to the first knuckle. Any time too much finger is put through the trigger guard you stand a good chance of imparting a rotational movement to the gun during the press which can result in shots pulled off center. Not to mention your own finger getting in the way of the press as it wraps around the trigger.

Steve

I suppose you don't know what I'm talking about, or you would not have responded to my suggestion the way you did. I speak from experience, not theory.
If the trigger is shaped correctly, pulling with the first knuckle is natural and fast.
I'm talking about up close or long range, point-isosceles or Weaver, free hand or bench rest, 5 yards or 50. This method is all about smooth, STRAIGHT BACK trigger pull with NO rotational movement and no shots pulled off center.
And the ball and dummy drill keeps your vertical flinch under control.
As you said, to each his own, but this method works.
Ken

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by ken swart

I suppose you don't know what I'm talking about, or you would not have responded to my suggestion the way you did. I speak from experience, not theory.

OK Ken, let’s talk experience: I went through my first basic academy in 1979, my first firearms instructor school (12 weeks 8 hour days) in 1985. Since that time I've been a full time firearms instructor with one agency or another. During my career I've taught many weapons and systems from .177 cal Olympic Free Pistol to 81mm mortars with a large spectrum between. I have 2 AAs in firearms instruction and maintenance and a BS in Education. Presently I teach pistol, revolver, rifle, subgun and shotgun on a daily basis depending on agency needs. For instance, today I'll be teaching a pistol speed shooting class this morning and a tactical shotgun class this afternoon. To say that I feel qualified to answer these questions based on experience, education and training would be a massive understatement. Nothing that I stated was a theory.

Originally Posted by ken swart

If the trigger is shaped correctly, pulling with the first knuckle is natural and fast. I'm talking about up close or long range, point-isosceles or Weaver, free hand or bench rest, 5 yards or 50. This method is all about smooth, STRAIGHT BACK trigger pull with NO rotational movement and no shots pulled off center.

To check this one merely has to watch the motion of the index finger (from the side) as it curls and you will notice that the joint moves in an arc. This arc is what can cause lateral movement in the handgun during the press. If instead, the trigger contact point is moved from the joint to somewhere in the middle of the first digit then that first digit can be flattened out and moved directly to the rear achieving a more straight back press. I'm talking about biomechanics here, not theories.

Originally Posted by ken swart

And the ball and dummy drill keeps your vertical flinch under control.

Most of this is correct and I use ball and dummy drills frequently. I would ad that a flinch normally involves some degree of lateral movement as well with the majority of that to the support side. In other words; when a shooter flinches, or experiences a subconscious muscular contraction in response to the report and recoil of the gun, that contraction is usually experienced by the majority of the shooting hand's control muscle groups. When all of the fingers contract on the grip of the gun then a rotational movement is imparted to the support side. To demonstrate this for yourself, hold the pistol or revolver in one hand, align the sights, then while watching the front sight very closely suddenly increase your grip pressure. You'll probably see the front sight move toward your support side. Combine this with the preemptive push down against the recoil and you have shots that are low and left for a right handed shooter and low and right for a left handed shooter.

Originally Posted by ken swart

As you said, to each his own, but this method works.
Ken

Ken, that may work for you but for the majority of shooters (especially those starting out) the first digit is a much better working point.

Steve

[ken swart]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

OK Ken, let’s talk experience: I went through my first basic academy in 1979, my first firearms instructor school (12 weeks 8 hour days) in 1985. Since that time I've been a full time firearms instructor with one agency or another. During my career I've taught many weapons and systems from .177 cal Olympic Free Pistol to 81mm mortars with a large spectrum between. I have 2 AAs in firearms instruction and maintenance and a BS in Education. Presently I teach pistol, revolver, rifle, subgun and shotgun on a daily basis depending on agency needs. For instance, today I'll be teaching a pistol speed shooting class this morning and a tactical shotgun class this afternoon. To say that I feel qualified to answer these questions based on experience, education and training would be a massive understatement. Nothing that I stated was a theory.
Steve, that's an impressive resume, you're welcome for the opportunity to post it.
I have no doubt you are an excellent teacher and shooter.
Please notice that I did't call into question your credentials or your methods.
The mention of theory was simply to make the point that I offered this advice from a position of experience. It had nothing to do with you, I just wanted to make the point that I didn't just dream this up.
By the way, I don't recall asking you any questions.


To check this one merely has to watch the motion of the index finger (from the side) as it curls and you will notice that the joint moves in an arc. This arc is what can cause lateral movement in the handgun during the press. If instead, the trigger contact point is moved from the joint to somewhere in the middle of the first digit then that first digit can be flattened out and moved directly to the rear achieving a more straight back press. I'm talking about biomechanics here, not theories.
I was taught to shoot by the police chief of a large suburb of chicago.
Before that a detective in St. Louis, before that special forces in Viet Nam.
The police pistol teams he led were quite successful, and he taught them the same way he taught me.
Here's a weird one: he absolutely swore that the reason for pulling with the first knuckle was precisely the reason you give for pulling with the pad of the finger. He used to laugh about how most cops shoot that way, and that most cops can't shoot.
I can't make an informed argument against your method, I have only ever pulled the trigger at the first knuckle. I won quite a few local shooting matches that way.
My wife shoots the same way. She used to quietly humiliate loud guys at the range by aligning her target with theirs and hitting 6 quick x, speedload, and 6 more. One time in particular it was two police officers. Maybe they were students of yours.


Most of this is correct and I use ball and dummy drills frequently. I would ad that a flinch normally involves some degree of lateral movement as well with the majority of that to the support side. In other words; when a shooter flinches, or experiences a subconscious muscular contraction in response to the report and recoil of the gun, that contraction is usually experienced by the majority of the shooting hand's control muscle groups. When all of the fingers contract on the grip of the gun then a rotational movement is imparted to the support side. To demonstrate this for yourself, hold the pistol or revolver in one hand, align the sights, then while watching the front sight very closely suddenly increase your grip pressure. You'll probably see the front sight move toward your support side. Combine this with the preemptive push down against the recoil and you have shots that are low and left for a right handed shooter and low and right for a left handed shooter.
Well I'm glad I got something mostly correct.
All of that about muscular contraction never really bothered me, I start out gripping tight.
All I know is when I don't practice ball and dummy, I shoot low.



Ken, that may work for you but for the majority of shooters (especially those starting out) the first digit is a much better working point.

Steve

Now there's a theory.

[ken swart]

That's an impressive resume Steve.
You're welcome for the opportunity to post it.
The mention of theory was only to make the point that I didn't just dream this up.
It wasn't about you, please notice I didn't question YOUR methods.
I was taught to shoot hand guns over 20 years ago by the police chief of a large suburb of Chicago. Before that a detective in St Louis, before that special forces in Viet Nam.
The competitive police pistol teams he led were quite successful, he taught his men the same methods he taught me.
Funny, he used to laugh that most cops shoot the way you do, and that most cops can't shoot.
My wife was taught by the same guy, she used to quiet loud guys at the range by aligning her target with theirs and hitting 6 quick x, speedload and 6 more. One time in particular it was 2 cops. They left fast.
Re ball and dummy, I'm glad I got at least something mostly right.
All that muscle contraction doesn't mean much to me, all I know is I already hold on tight, and if I don't practice b+d I shoot low.