Butler Registry...It's time!

[BRI000]

I am sure Ron will remember it. I last saw him about 5-6 years ago while I was up to to visit and pick up some parts. I trust he is still doing well.

I will send you off some further info the beginning of the week.

I am in Brea, California.

[cobra94563]

Nice to find this group! I'm in No.Cal. I haven't been following cobra activities for a bit, but like to find out more on what you all are doing to change or improve your cars.

I got the car around 1997; it was about 75% complete and the prior owner had worked on it for 11+years and purchased it from Steve Arntz. I completed it and registered it in '98/99 or so.

Feel free to contact me - email is best. Chris

========================================
Butler serial number - none
(i looked all over, and understand this may have been one of the early, early frames. Pre-Bulter, maybe 1970's. The only markings I have seen are "11-79".
(Not sure if that is a date or a chassis number of sorts.)
Club Cobra Handle - Cobra94563
Owner name - Chris Fong
Owner City and State - Orinda, CA
Owner phone number
Email address - cf30@sbcglobal.net
What year acquired - 1997
Mileage - 0
Color - Blue/White
Stripes (if yes, what color)Engine description (size, induction, and any special comments) - 355
Transmission - T10
Rear end (solid or IRS & gear ratio) Jag IRS
Wheels (brand and sizes) Centerline
Tires (brand and sizes) BFG

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by cobra94563

Nice to find this group! I'm in No.Cal. I haven't been following cobra activities for a bit, but like to find out more on what you all are doing to change or improve your cars.

I got the car around 1997; it was about 75% complete and the prior owner had worked on it for 11+years and purchased it from Steve Arntz. I completed it and registered it in '98/99 or so.

Feel free to contact me - email is best. Chris

========================================
Butler serial number - none
(i looked all over, and understand this may have been one of the early, early frames. Pre-Bulter, maybe 1970's. The only markings I have seen are "11-79".
(Not sure if that is a date or a chassis number of sorts.)
Club Cobra Handle - Cobra94563
Owner name - Chris Fong
Owner City and State - Orinda, CA
Owner phone number
Email address - cf30@sbcglobal.net
What year acquired - 1997
Mileage - 0
Color - Blue/White
Stripes (if yes, what color)Engine description (size, induction, and any special comments) - 355
Transmission - T10
Rear end (solid or IRS & gear ratio) Jag IRS
Wheels (brand and sizes) Centerline
Tires (brand and sizes) BFG

If I had to guess, it sounds more like you have an Arntz than a Butler. Most Arntz Cobras didn't have a serial number like the Butlers. They are pretty random.

[Thor maine]

Does any body know what happened to the body molds and frame jigs?Is anybody manufacturing a cobra under a different name??I always liked the Artnz/Butler for the frame and body shape.

[lal Naja]

Don't know about the molds. But I believe that Ron Butler has one last body that can be used as a plug for a new mold to be generated.

I also think he may have the frame jig along with many other minor jigs.

I love the frame & body design and fantasized about taking on the project to continue the blood line. But it would be a huge comittment. Not sure I have the fortitude and definately not the $ resources.

Arthur

[SoTxButler]

Arthur is right...Ron does have one more body, the frame jigs, the hood, scoops, hard top mold and enough parts to probably build another car.

Needless to say, also the complete list of part numbers, suppliers, etc. everything needed which could take countless hours to research and reproduce.

I wish someone would take this on and engineer a renaissance of these automotive works of art. If you get serious, let me know and I will get you and Ron together.

[arntz427]

Hello, i was just reading your thread. I have an early arntz cobra that I have been working on but I also have a extra body and chassis that I purchased from Steve Arntz personally up in Danville, CA about 8 years ago.
I got to know Steve about 10 years ago when I called about an ad for a cobra project in the San Francisco Chronicle. He directed me to a mini storage unit where he was storing the car along with a bunch of parts and a really cool old Gurney Weslake engine that he said he was going to put in another cobra. We exchanged phone numbers and I told him I would check with my wife and think about it. When I called him back he had sold the car but told me he had another body and chassis he would sell me. So I met him up in Danville and bought the body and chassis from him. A couple years later I bought the complete Arntz car that I have now and had Steve come look at it for me to verify it was one of his. It was quite entertaining to watch the owner that I bought the car from talk trash about Steve Arntz and what a horrible business man he was right in front of him not knowing that it was him checking out the car!!HAHA. I kept in contact with him off and on over the years. He wasn't in great health when I first met him and the last time I saw him was at the Monterey collector car auctions about 3 years ago. He was in a wheelchair, he had told me he has tremendous back problems from an accident in his past. Anyway..Steve told me that the body and chassis he sold me is a "2nd generation body" that was much nicer than the early cars, he said it could have been produced during the time that Ron Butler took over, so after reading your posts I am wondering if it could be a Butler body? I assume the butler cars are almost identical to the arntz? Is there any way of telling if the body is a butler? It has not been cut out yet, it is just as it came out of the mold. Any info would be appreciated..I am also looking to sell the body and chassis if anyone is interested? Thanks.

[lal Naja]

Some photographs would be informative.

Does the frame have the serial number stamped on the left front corner?

Does the cowl have the cutout for the SBC Distributor and is the hood shaped to fit the cutout?

What price are you asking for frame & body?

Arthur

[lal Naja]

Not sure I can identify what it is as of yet. Perhaps others can...

Do you have a seperate trunk & hood lid skins? These pieces will be needed when the cut-outs are made. Also the underside of both these components have additional fiberglass structure that is not shown and will be needed.

Have the trunk & engine bay inner-skin/structure been glassed in? What about all the steel structure that would be in front of the dash that makes up the door hinge mounting points and chassis bolting mounts.? Also steel hoop in the trunk that will be the rear mounting points to the frame and roll bar mount.

Cockpit does look similar but the dash does not look like a Butler at all. Not mine at least.

Do you have door inner & outer panels with the hinge/catch beam structures?

Looking forward to seeing the frame photos.


Arthur

[joyridin']

It does look like an Arntz. The actual dashboard section is missing in the photos. Note there is no gas indent on the rear quarter. As I found out, Arntz cars never had this. Classic Motorcars, CMC/Streetbeast, and Arntz were the only ones I know if that had no gas cap indent.

Do you have all the other pieces?

[DMNTED]

Hi Guys,
I just picked up my Cobra yesterday from a long time friend. It’s a long way from California; the car made its way to NY around 1999, based on my read of the Forums, I think it’s either an Artnz, Butler or something in between.

The car is titled as a ’84 with a 351W and a Jag rear. The first hint that led me to think it is an Artnz or Butler is the roll bar. It has the three point that extends into the passenger seat like a few of the cars I have seen posted in this group. The frame design and pedal box seem to be very close in design, along with the engine placement and interior style.

Like JGODDARD posted a year ago on this thread, my frame also has welded into a rear cross “G-R 170”. Only today I have a better sense of where I should be looking for a possible BRI# on the front frame and will take a look tonight when I get home.

I have posted a few pictures in a gallery for your to take a look at.

Rob

[lal Naja]

Hard to tell. More photos would be good. Engine bay, trunk, frame shots would be nice.

Arthur

[Kim Bager]

Hi Rob
I have bought the Arntz "GR 172" car from Jerry, and the car is now in Denmark. I am going to register the car, but the danish motor vehicle office ask for further documentation regarding the frame no. and origin.

I have found out that your car has a similar frame no., and would be very interested to hear if you have found further documentation for the car?

I hope you can help

Regards Kim

[DMNTED]

Hi Arthur,
I added some frame shots, you will see I have some clean up work ahead of me. I'll take a few pictures of the engine bay and trunk tonight. The engine is set rearward a bit under the cowl. And the fuel tank is positioned towards the rear of the car along the bottom of the trunk. In one of the pictures, you can see the fuel line coming out of the bottom of the trunk, its a staight line pointing to the ground on the driver's side.

I did not see any stampings on the frame, looking through the from driver's side vent or in the front driver's wheel well. Maybe I'll have to get it up in the air again and take the wheel off.


Thanks,
Rob

[joyridin']

well, if I had to guess, it would be an Arntz. Mine has a plate welded on the frame stating who the car was built for. I see yours they welded the name in the frame. The frame and suspension look to be either Arntz or Butler. Like yours, my tank is the bottom of the trunk so to say.

Now, the interior I am not really sure. Mine looks nothing like that. Yours has the ignition in the column, but I guess somebody could have done that on their own? The brake handle and shifter also are not int he same place as mine and the dash looks different. All thing that probably could have been changed by the first owner I guess.

Good luck with the car!

[VC455]

I JUST stumbled onto this site. I'm a 25+ year owner of a Butler, met Brett and Cindy, 25 years ago. Have been driving my car every year since. I have some history, but would like to learn more.

Butler serial number
Can't find it, have attached some photos, need more direction on where to look.
Club Cobra Handle
VC455, I also have a couple of Olds, Vista Cruisers, as 'Home Depot hotrods'
Owner name
Steve Sabatini
New Hampshire
Jeepnhusa@yahoo.com

acquired, 1985, in Santa Monica / Malibu CA, I believe built in 1980 by LAPD CA
about 49k miles,
white / light blue Stripes
351 C Ford Top Loader
Jag, Rear end
3:55 gear ratio
Empi modular Wheels

[750hp]

Welcome to ClubCobra, Steve. There wouldn't be many others on this site who have owned their Cobra since 1985!

[lal Naja]

I've owned my Butler since 1987.

Your picture of the left front frame is where the stamped number should be.

If not numbered, it may have been one of the frames that Butler made for Arntz. I'm not sure anyone really knows the Arntz numbering system.

The body in the left wheel arch also looks a little different to my Butler with the horizontal cut out section. The indent behind the MGB lever Shock is much smaller than mine and the shock tower for tubular shock is also missing.

The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.

Arthur

[VC455]

Originally Posted by lal Naja

I've owned my Butler since 1987.

Your picture of the left front frame is where the stamped number should be.

If not numbered, it may have been one of the frames that Butler made for Arntz. I'm not sure anyone really knows the Arntz numbering system.

The body in the left wheel arch also looks a little different to my Butler with the horizontal cut out section. The indent behind the MGB lever Shock is much smaller than mine and the shock tower for tubular shock is also missing.

The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.

Arthur

lal Naja
Thanks for all the observations.
I'd like to find out where my car slots into the Arntz/Butler family tree.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where else to look for frame ID info??
I'd love to hear from anyone about any of my miscellaneous ramblings below ...

I've been driving the wheels off this car since 1985 and never really got around to the history. I stumbled on this site, and am fascinated by the group knowledge base.
Yeah, I have a ton of questions and can certainly take more pictures.

a) your comment about: The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.
What about those 2 holes, WHY??

b) what is the accepted practice for controlling the Jag hubs, forward and backward? My car HAD nothing, I made up a double spherical-joint 'trailing link' that picks up the bottom the Jag hub and goes forward @ ~45% to forward lateral frame rail...
Comments? I'll take photos.

c) yeah, you mentioned my lever action shocks in the front end, seems I also have a Dick Goldstrand A arm kit, ??

d) has Eplison F & R modular wheels.



BTW I have
1) a copy of the Butler 2 page wiring handout dated 5/82

AND an Original (not copy) of
2) COBRA ROADSTER PARTS CATALOG
1963 thru 1967
Models
dated NOVEMBER 1968 and stamped $5.00

3) While I was in CA, Mike McClusky of Torrance Ca did some work on my car.


Interesting memorabilia.

[lal Naja]

Originally Posted by VC455

lal Naja
Thanks for all the observations.
I'd like to find out where my car slots into the Arntz/Butler family tree.
Does anyone have any thoughts on where else to look for frame ID info??
I'd love to hear from anyone about any of my miscellaneous ramblings below ...

I've been driving the wheels off this car since 1985 and never really got around to the history. I stumbled on this site, and am fascinated by the group knowledge base.
Yeah, I have a ton of questions and can certainly take more pictures.

a) your comment about: The rear of the frame that is scalloped where the Jaguar differential extends forward is also different with the two holes.
What about those 2 holes, WHY??

b) what is the accepted practice for controlling the Jag hubs, forward and backward? My car HAD nothing, I made up a double spherical-joint 'trailing link' that picks up the bottom the Jag hub and goes forward @ ~45% to forward lateral frame rail...
Comments? I'll take photos.

c) yeah, you mentioned my lever action shocks in the front end, seems I also have a Dick Goldstrand A arm kit, ??

d) has Eplison F & R modular wheels.



BTW I have
1) a copy of the Butler 2 page wiring handout dated 5/82

AND an Original (not copy) of
2) COBRA ROADSTER PARTS CATALOG
1963 thru 1967
Models
dated NOVEMBER 1968 and stamped $5.00

3) While I was in CA, Mike McClusky of Torrance Ca did some work on my car.


Interesting memorabilia.

a) The holes would be for access to the front nuts on the inner pivot shaft of the Control Arm. Or, if a long bolt was used as the pivot shaft, then the hole would be for the removal of the bolt.

b) Acceptable. Anything well engineered with CORRECT geometry. This means that the trailing links need to align with the inner pivot shaft mentioned in (a) above. this prevents any binding as the suspension travels through its full range of motion.

Original Jag design was not a perfect solution and that is why the pivot points had large rubber bushings. Having the Trailing Links going forward of the IRS on our cars poses a whole bunch of problems. And is not the direction I would go. There is plenty of room to have correct geometry Trailing arms going backward from the IRS.

In addition to trailing arms; a Watts Linkage would make a perfect setup. Fitting Watts should be no problem. Mick Mate on this Forum makes a great Watts unit, but you will have to adapt it a little to your frame. And don't forget an Anti-Sway-Bar.

Arthur