Originally Posted by RallySnake (Post 1336451)

Joey,

That looks like the car that Ron Butler used as a display model in his Goleta shop.

The Butler cars are built much stronger than any of the other Cobra's. The primary frame members are 3" by 4" rectangular tubing and they make the car very rigid unlike many replica's or originals. The cockpit is surrounded by steel tubes and the doors have 2" by 4" rectangular tubes running from the hinges to the latches. The fiberglass body's are extra thick and strong, too. If you are ever going to be involved in an accident in a Cobra, the Butler is the best one to be in. The biggest advantage of this extra weight is that it's very low and makes the center of gravity very low. I have had some very hairy experiences in my 29 years of Arntz ownership (the earlier version of the Butler) and it's very difficult to flip the car over.

RS

Originally Posted by steelcomp (Post 489463)

It seems apologies are in order. Throughout this thread, I was of the mind and intention to keep things on an objective and impersonal level, and thought I was doing just that. However, after listening to the responses, and before responding to them, I felt as if I should re read what has been posted and responded to, and I have to say that I have not been as objective as I had hoped I could or thought I was being. To those of you which I offended, I apologise. My comments that were made for the purpose of insult and belittlement were inappropriate and uncalled for.

Some of you probably know who I am. If you read back through the threads, I offered that I am the S of G&S, who, with my father, bought Butler Cobras. There's a story there that I will not go in to, but for those of you that assesed that I have "issues", you are correct, and I apologise, again, for not recognising just how much distain I have for this INDUSTRY, not the people in it. I made some sweeping comments out of frustration, which I will address, but the jest of my comments were never at people. Unfortunately it's hard with just the printed word to accurately communicate what tone of voice and facial expressions might otherwise explain. Some of what I said was taken very far out of context. Understandably so. I hit some sensative nerves, obviously. That was probably my intention, and I'll not justify it, but there is an explaination. I took a huge chance, and my father as well, and together we put our hearts and souls, and every pennie we had into the Cobra arena, and were lied to, swindled, and cheated by almost every one who had the ability to. I trusted with all I had, two of the most legendary icons in this replica (and authentic) Cobra world, only to have both of them blatently and without conscience intentionally falsify information, financial figures, and intention. Yes it ended in court, but we had to walk away after being drained of all our funds, having nothing left. Ther was no support from anyone. I have a feeling that the Butler name was doomed from the get go, after hearing of his attitude and opinion of the same industry.
I mentioned two icons. The other was Steve Arntz aka David Norman of whom I will reserve comment except for to say that his day will come. I came away from my experience with him with nothing. He "relieved me" of over 20K worth of tools, inventory, and personal property and files including my Cobra customer base. He was ordered by a judge to return most of the property with a follow up court date, neither of which did he obey, and that was the last I saw of him or my possessions. When I say I left that experience with nothing, I meant it in the literal sense. To this day I do not understand his motivation for doing such a thing. Some of those things can never be replaced.

It's been 5 yrs. since I even spoke about a Cobra. In the begining I tought I would see what was "out there", my curiosity and passion for the damn car getting the better of me. I found this web site, and was reading some posts. I saw "Shelby Aluminum" and it cought my eye. I was lucky enough to have worked with Mike LeFevers at Shelby as one of my customers wanted an all aluminum 427. That was an interesting experience. Some of you may remember the rolling chassis. I took it to Knots Berry Farm and won 1'st pl. Mfgr trophy for that car. First time out. I worked 100 hrs+ a week for a year trying to make a business go that was so mis represented, it was never going to go! But I tried.
I started reading the post about the KC engine, and as I admitted before, I had read past the first thread, and seen in the second and third that the numbers were corrected to 760+ hp.

Here's where I still hold my ground. I questioned those numbers, and, first of all, no one corrected me of the error untill several pages later, but the fact remains, and still to this moment, no one has told me how or why those (corrected) numbers are correct. I kept getting comments from the peanut gallery, and there was all kinds of support for the fact that every one believed they were correct. There was even a dyno sheet, that I immediately found out and pointed out discrepancies about (which still haven't been answered). I really never intended that it was impossible, just that through my experience, that kind of HP requires more compression, cam and carb than how the motor was described. I don't believe much of what I'm told, especially byb a bunch of guys who have a very srong EMOTIONAL investment in this, nor do I look at someone's dyno sheet and accept that as gospel. I was looking for a techiniocal explaination fo how that kind of power was made with those given parameters. I haven't folowed super stock drag racing for years, and frankly never did. The FE was great in it's day, and I can admit, it seems as if it has made a come back, in it's own world. I wasn't looking for an arguement, or a debate, or anything else. Hell, I love to be proven wrong...I can be very opinionated...and love to learn. My experience isn't the point here. My point is that I raised some questions (and recognise that I might have presented them better) that still, no one has answered. I don't care about a 9 sec. Fairlane. That dosen't tell me "how!" Don't tell me I'm wrong and expect me to just say "OK" because you say I am. I'm not claiming something here that I need to defend. I know what I know and don't have to prove anything. I'm the one raising questions and doubts, and no one has given me an answer yet. Not one. A lot of lynch mob mentality rock throwing (which I may have started) but not an answer yet.

I again sincerely apologise for not recognising where my emotions were regarding this whole subject. I am angry. I have a right to be, and I guess I took it upon myself to take it out on all you good people. It was unfair, inappropriate, and childish. Please accept my sincere apology, and offer some understanding in return.

Scott Foxwell

Originally Posted by stallion112 (Post 1338958)

The description of the Butler frame and body sound familiar to the Kellison Stallion frame and body. Does anyone know the differences / similarities between the two? The Stallion was produced circa 1978-1981.